My wife and I have been working on our PPL’s with a major flight school in Toronto. This was to be the summer of flying. We started our ground school mid winter so that we would have all the book work finished in time for the good flying weather and long days. Unfortunately things haven’t worked out very well at all. We each have a total of 3 hours flying time after about 3 months of “flying”. This is because of a combination of challenges. The flight school is so busy that you have to book flight lessons 3 weeks in advance or you have no hope of getting a plane. I think students just book up the planes and then cancel the ones they don’t need, because every time I am at the airport there are plenty of the school’s aircraft sitting idle. Anyway, if a lesson gets cancelled it really sucks because they are impossible to rebook. In the spring most of the lessons got cancelled because of weather and the school’s low minimums. Now in July our instructor is cancelling lessons for his own personal reasons; either he is doing his own flight training or he is out of town. We have the money, the willingness, the ability to put in the time but we just can’t book the hours. The entire experience has been tremendously frustrating. We just want to fly. I used to get excited every time I see aircraft fly over my house and now I just get pissed off because I should be up flying but I am not.
I spoke to a pilot friend of mine who has 1000 hours and he suggested travelling to a smaller independent regional flight school. He figured that they might be able to give us blocks of time with an instructor’s undivided attention. I envision driving up for a Saturday and Sunday of flying and pre flight every second weekend. Does anybody know of such a school or instructor that could accommodate? I guess the cheaper rental rates at a smaller regional school will probably make up for the extra travel costs anyway.
Frustrated at a large school - can't get time
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, Right Seat Captain
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crazycanuck
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Re: Frustrated at a large school - can't get time
Start calling/visiting the smaller schools at other air ports. I used to instruct and that sort of treatment would have caused my old boss to explode. Especially the mass bookings then cancellations. There is no excuse for a school not being able to accomadte you two. Look into the schools in Barrie, Brampton and orangeville. It will be worth the drive.
The feet you step on today might be attached to the ass you're kissing tomorrow.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
Re: Frustrated at a large school - can't get time
If you'd like me to refer you to my instructor - a very capable teacher, at a school in Toronto, with availability, pm me for my contact details. I'm sure he'd be delighted to hear from you.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: Frustrated at a large school - can't get time
Change schools... Thats all there is to it, especially with only three hours, there is no reason at all to stay where you are. Your business obviously isnt appreciated.
Re: Frustrated at a large school - can't get time
2 years ago I simply walked away from a "large school in the GTA" when I was frustrated not flying for 2 months after moving here to complete CPL training. Trying to get picked up by an instructor was a waiting game- then when I was it was an ordeal to make a booking.
I had done ground school there, which was decent because of the nice classrooms and PowerPoint classware, but finally walked out and looked elsewhere after my first "flight".
When I had *finally* gotten into a plane (with a very young instructor), he called it off during the run-up after doing a mag check several times, (he was performing the runup for some reason) because the drop on one set was right around 125 rpm. (and within 50rpm of the other mag). He spent 5 minutes flicking the ignition back and forth and squinting at the needle, trying to perceive whether it was a drop of 125 rpm or 126 rpm. Apparently too much for him... for a 30 minute checkout flight.
Walking back in, I learned that he had only been instructing for a month. I wasn't happy with that at all- it may have been fine with me if I was going for a rec or even ppl, but not group 1 and commercial.
I was a bit pissy to pay the .2 on him and the plane, but obviously didn't continue my training there after that point.
On the flip side of that, About a year later (last summmer) I was referred directly to a flight instructor there in order to do a MIFR, so I went back. Almost all my dealings with him were outside of the school, and we only met there for flights. The experience was great and he was a fantastic instructor (an ATPL who also works at FlightSafety). So I think the key there is to already have established a relationship with an instructor.
Booking the Seminoles were very easy compared with the 172s. Usually only a few days prior is needed.
I would encourage you to simply walk away and pick up somewhere else. Overall your experience will be much, much better at a smaller school anyways.
I had done ground school there, which was decent because of the nice classrooms and PowerPoint classware, but finally walked out and looked elsewhere after my first "flight".
When I had *finally* gotten into a plane (with a very young instructor), he called it off during the run-up after doing a mag check several times, (he was performing the runup for some reason) because the drop on one set was right around 125 rpm. (and within 50rpm of the other mag). He spent 5 minutes flicking the ignition back and forth and squinting at the needle, trying to perceive whether it was a drop of 125 rpm or 126 rpm. Apparently too much for him... for a 30 minute checkout flight.
Walking back in, I learned that he had only been instructing for a month. I wasn't happy with that at all- it may have been fine with me if I was going for a rec or even ppl, but not group 1 and commercial.
I was a bit pissy to pay the .2 on him and the plane, but obviously didn't continue my training there after that point.
On the flip side of that, About a year later (last summmer) I was referred directly to a flight instructor there in order to do a MIFR, so I went back. Almost all my dealings with him were outside of the school, and we only met there for flights. The experience was great and he was a fantastic instructor (an ATPL who also works at FlightSafety). So I think the key there is to already have established a relationship with an instructor.
Booking the Seminoles were very easy compared with the 172s. Usually only a few days prior is needed.
I would encourage you to simply walk away and pick up somewhere else. Overall your experience will be much, much better at a smaller school anyways.
Re: Frustrated at a large school - can't get time
It's quite a shame: you and your wife were exactly the kinds of students I enjoyed teaching the most; they were well prepared and keen to try what I was suggesting. I used to work at both small and large flight schools, and now only freelance when the "right" client comes my way. (I am a Class 1/ATPL occasional freelance instructor in the Calgary area.)
Too bad I'm out west, as I'd be very glad to help you both finish your licenses together!
cheers,
Padre12
Too bad I'm out west, as I'd be very glad to help you both finish your licenses together!
cheers,
Padre12
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North Shore
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Re: Frustrated at a large school - can't get time
(Can't remember the legalities involved here, so please bear with me..)
Why not buy your own plane, and then just hire instructors - then the plane is always available?
Good luck, and have FUN!
Why not buy your own plane, and then just hire instructors - then the plane is always available?
Good luck, and have FUN!
Say, what's that mountain goat doing up here in the mist?
Happiness is V1 at Thompson!
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.
Happiness is V1 at Thompson!
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.
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just curious
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Re: Frustrated at a large school - can't get time
Further afield and make a weekend of it. Stratford, Borden Flying Club, St Thomas, Enterprise looked awfully quiet last time I was south. Edenvale, Collingwood...
Bigger is sometimes better:
By traveling to a smaller school a bit out of the GTA, you open yourself up to family possibilities that you don't have just going to say Trawna. Edenvale or Collingwood yields Blue Mountain, Vintage aircraft, Balm Beach. Borden, a nice nearby micro brewery, the Mill at Alton; Stratford, the festival, the park the Thames.
Kitchener Waterloo has a modernized school, permanent instructors, and a few new aircraft. While they have a small college program, and air cadets, they seem to have set aside the weekends for private individuals. Facilities were good on my spring visit and the on-field restaurant had just had a new cook. There would be Rockwood, with the conservation area, and a couple nice small restaurants...
Going further afield may make your flying faster and your weekends more balanced. Have fun with whatever your choice is!
Bigger is sometimes better:
- Groundschool, l
- obby,
- receptionist,
- smartboards in the briefing room instead of whiteboards.
- A genuine relationship with a professional instructor who isn't going to see either of you as: Folio #49686.
- Less people who fly there, and who better understand the importance of being on time.
By traveling to a smaller school a bit out of the GTA, you open yourself up to family possibilities that you don't have just going to say Trawna. Edenvale or Collingwood yields Blue Mountain, Vintage aircraft, Balm Beach. Borden, a nice nearby micro brewery, the Mill at Alton; Stratford, the festival, the park the Thames.
Kitchener Waterloo has a modernized school, permanent instructors, and a few new aircraft. While they have a small college program, and air cadets, they seem to have set aside the weekends for private individuals. Facilities were good on my spring visit and the on-field restaurant had just had a new cook. There would be Rockwood, with the conservation area, and a couple nice small restaurants...
Going further afield may make your flying faster and your weekends more balanced. Have fun with whatever your choice is!
Re: Frustrated at a large school - can't get time
I'll throw my hat in with what all the others have suggested - find a smaller school that'll treat you decently.
I made the mistake of not switching schools or firmly demanding a new instructor when it became evident that the large east coast school I was at, and the 19 yr old hotshot instructor assigned, had no interest in flying me regularly - I didn't, and it took me almost an extra year to finish a CPL.
It was a farce, really- I'd done a glider pilot's licence with Cadets at 16, and did the glider famil thing for a few years, then PPL, night rating, and seaplane rating by 2001 - Ran out of money at that point and switched over to high tech, with about 135 hrs in the book.....finally got back to flying in Jan 2009.
So, I called around schools, looked online, and picked one that said I could fly pretty much as much as I wanted - a few times a week, finish off CPL, multi, IFR pretty much full time. The plan was to show up with cash in hand, after selling pretty much all my possessions and committing to life as a pauper for a few years, finish off licenses and rating, and be done by spring 2009, in time for a roadtrip terminating in Yellowknife. The reason I chose them was their very clearly stated position that, if I wanted to get it done quickly, they'd assign instructors as appropriate, and we'd get 'er done.
The reality differed from the commitment. Brand new (first student) instructor assigned. 2 weeks to first flight. "Flight review" had to be completed as it'd been more than 5 years since I'd flown. This should have been a review of items required for PPL - instead it was aimless flights with no goal, despite asking for a clear plan... We flew once every week or two. That's it. I tried to change instructors, a few times.....to no avail. It was incredibly frustrating. Months of sitting around, WAITING, instructor not responding to messages. Meanwhile, Chinese students, and diploma students were flying. Next in line priority wise was the Integrated CPL folks, and last of all, the modular ones.
Finally, in...August or Sept (I showed up in Jan), we got to CPL review, and as the instructor was a Class 4, a ride with a Class 1 was required for the CPL flight test recommend flight. I was overjoyed to go flying with someone else.... Then, while waiting around dispatch shooting the breeze with him, I foolishly mentioned that it'd be the first time in 10 years I'd done unusual attitudes, kinda jokingly, not really concerned. That made him quite mad, he cancelled the flight and required me to do another flight with the first instructor, as I should have covered it in CPL review (and the PPL flight review, for that matter).
It was at that point that I finally demanded a new instructor from the CFI...I'd asked in the past, and even asked to just do a flight with a sr instructor or CFI... They assigned a great guy, older, real world experience, really nice guy to get along with. CPL was done in a few flights, though there was a wait of almost a month from the recommend flight to the flight test.
They hadn't let me get checked out on the DA40 until after CPL flight test, though others could, based on the recommendation of that first instructor. After CPL, we did a quick checkout, and that was done (originally was supposed to be in June).
2 week wait due to aircraft availability 'til the multi was started - great instructor (fairly sure I know who he is on here, actually). We were able to bang through the flights quickly, most .1 or .2 under scheduled - 6 flights + flight test. Great instructor, terrible aircraft availability - 2 months from first flight to flight test, and 3 weeks from the sim flight test til the next time I flew, which was the flight test. Multi was fun.
Started IFR the day after the multi flight test - excellent instructor there too, and we did a few sims a day for a week. To save money, and for aircraft availability reasons, we used the DA40 (G1000+ADF & DME - used in reversionary mode with GPS map hidden and onscreen HSI 90% of the time) for all the flights up til the the last 2 or 3 with engine failures, and the flight test, for that we switched to a Seminole. Even with 2 1/2 weeks off for Christmas, it was about 1 1/2 months from first flight to flight test, and only a week's wait for the flight test that time. IFR was fun.
After that, used the money saved on IFR using the DA40 to do about 10 hrs in a taildragger, and do a bit of aerobatics. Taildragger/aerobatics was very fun
.
Wrote the IATRA and did some crosscountries IFR to get "up" to 250 hrs, then left there in April 2010.
So, 9 months to do a PPL review, CPL review, and CPL flight test.... Flew maybe 40 hrs, most of those with no goal or defined plan.
4 months for multi and IFR, including about 2 months of delay waiting for airplanes, or off at Christmas. The right instructors and the right attitudes matter.
That's a rather long and rambling story - upshot is, it's your money, and you're the customer (and a student, of course). If they're not flying you, or it's just not working with the instructor you have, see if you can fly with someone else. Also, generally a good thing to fly with different instructors from time to time, even if all is going well.
If things don't improve drastically there - there are plenty of decent little schools with good equipment and decent instructors, that would be happy to have your business.
Cheers,
Colin
I made the mistake of not switching schools or firmly demanding a new instructor when it became evident that the large east coast school I was at, and the 19 yr old hotshot instructor assigned, had no interest in flying me regularly - I didn't, and it took me almost an extra year to finish a CPL.
It was a farce, really- I'd done a glider pilot's licence with Cadets at 16, and did the glider famil thing for a few years, then PPL, night rating, and seaplane rating by 2001 - Ran out of money at that point and switched over to high tech, with about 135 hrs in the book.....finally got back to flying in Jan 2009.
So, I called around schools, looked online, and picked one that said I could fly pretty much as much as I wanted - a few times a week, finish off CPL, multi, IFR pretty much full time. The plan was to show up with cash in hand, after selling pretty much all my possessions and committing to life as a pauper for a few years, finish off licenses and rating, and be done by spring 2009, in time for a roadtrip terminating in Yellowknife. The reason I chose them was their very clearly stated position that, if I wanted to get it done quickly, they'd assign instructors as appropriate, and we'd get 'er done.
The reality differed from the commitment. Brand new (first student) instructor assigned. 2 weeks to first flight. "Flight review" had to be completed as it'd been more than 5 years since I'd flown. This should have been a review of items required for PPL - instead it was aimless flights with no goal, despite asking for a clear plan... We flew once every week or two. That's it. I tried to change instructors, a few times.....to no avail. It was incredibly frustrating. Months of sitting around, WAITING, instructor not responding to messages. Meanwhile, Chinese students, and diploma students were flying. Next in line priority wise was the Integrated CPL folks, and last of all, the modular ones.
Finally, in...August or Sept (I showed up in Jan), we got to CPL review, and as the instructor was a Class 4, a ride with a Class 1 was required for the CPL flight test recommend flight. I was overjoyed to go flying with someone else.... Then, while waiting around dispatch shooting the breeze with him, I foolishly mentioned that it'd be the first time in 10 years I'd done unusual attitudes, kinda jokingly, not really concerned. That made him quite mad, he cancelled the flight and required me to do another flight with the first instructor, as I should have covered it in CPL review (and the PPL flight review, for that matter).
It was at that point that I finally demanded a new instructor from the CFI...I'd asked in the past, and even asked to just do a flight with a sr instructor or CFI... They assigned a great guy, older, real world experience, really nice guy to get along with. CPL was done in a few flights, though there was a wait of almost a month from the recommend flight to the flight test.
They hadn't let me get checked out on the DA40 until after CPL flight test, though others could, based on the recommendation of that first instructor. After CPL, we did a quick checkout, and that was done (originally was supposed to be in June).
2 week wait due to aircraft availability 'til the multi was started - great instructor (fairly sure I know who he is on here, actually). We were able to bang through the flights quickly, most .1 or .2 under scheduled - 6 flights + flight test. Great instructor, terrible aircraft availability - 2 months from first flight to flight test, and 3 weeks from the sim flight test til the next time I flew, which was the flight test. Multi was fun.
Started IFR the day after the multi flight test - excellent instructor there too, and we did a few sims a day for a week. To save money, and for aircraft availability reasons, we used the DA40 (G1000+ADF & DME - used in reversionary mode with GPS map hidden and onscreen HSI 90% of the time) for all the flights up til the the last 2 or 3 with engine failures, and the flight test, for that we switched to a Seminole. Even with 2 1/2 weeks off for Christmas, it was about 1 1/2 months from first flight to flight test, and only a week's wait for the flight test that time. IFR was fun.
After that, used the money saved on IFR using the DA40 to do about 10 hrs in a taildragger, and do a bit of aerobatics. Taildragger/aerobatics was very fun
.Wrote the IATRA and did some crosscountries IFR to get "up" to 250 hrs, then left there in April 2010.
So, 9 months to do a PPL review, CPL review, and CPL flight test.... Flew maybe 40 hrs, most of those with no goal or defined plan.
4 months for multi and IFR, including about 2 months of delay waiting for airplanes, or off at Christmas. The right instructors and the right attitudes matter.
That's a rather long and rambling story - upshot is, it's your money, and you're the customer (and a student, of course). If they're not flying you, or it's just not working with the instructor you have, see if you can fly with someone else. Also, generally a good thing to fly with different instructors from time to time, even if all is going well.
If things don't improve drastically there - there are plenty of decent little schools with good equipment and decent instructors, that would be happy to have your business.
Cheers,
Colin
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crazycanuck
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- Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:40 pm
Re: Frustrated at a large school - can't get time
Thanks for all the advice. Just curious. There really aren't many schools east of Toronto, beyond Oshawa I mean. I am in the east end so crossing the GTA on a Saturday to fly can be a challenge with traffic. I kinda thought about slipping out the east end to someplace like Peterborough. Anyway, it doesn't really matter much once you have decided you are willing to drive to fly. Just an interesting observation.
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crazycanuck
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Re: Frustrated at a large school - can't get time
Yeah, I know about that route and it makes sense. I just don't happen to have the $50,000 yet to buy a C172 and I don't know if that is the plane I want to own anyways. Plus, there is a whole other education that goes along with aircraft ownership that is a little overwhelming to a new student pilot.North Shore wrote:(Can't remember the legalities involved here, so please bear with me..)
Why not buy your own plane, and then just hire instructors - then the plane is always available?
Good luck, and have FUN!
Re: Frustrated at a large school - can't get time
You definitely don't need to spend $50K on a 172, and chances are its NOT the plane you'd want to own after your done the PPL.crazycanuck wrote:Yeah, I know about that route and it makes sense. I just don't happen to have the $50,000 yet to buy a C172 and I don't know if that is the plane I want to own anyways. Plus, there is a whole other education that goes along with aircraft ownership that is a little overwhelming to a new student pilot.North Shore wrote:(Can't remember the legalities involved here, so please bear with me..)
Why not buy your own plane, and then just hire instructors - then the plane is always available?
Good luck, and have FUN!
However aircraft ownership is not something that I'd recommend to someone at the "testing the waters" stage. Buying into an existing partnership is a good option of you are lucky enough to find a good one though.
-Grant
Re: Frustrated at a large school - can't get time
This is probably the best advice you'll find here.North Shore wrote:(Can't remember the legalities involved here, so please bear with me..)
Why not buy your own plane, and then just hire instructors - then the plane is always available?
Good luck, and have FUN!
If there is two of you that is minimum $20,000 in renting for the PPL you will spend at a school. If you are looking to fly afterwards (which would make sense) you will save a lot in the long term.
Also, instructors freelance cheaper than a school charges (cause the school gets a piece of it, of course).
Re: Frustrated at a large school - can't get time
With large schools like the one your attending, one has to wonder the quality of training your getting. Take the others advice and find a smaller school that will spend the time and a instructor will give you the quality instruction your paying for. Good luck. DHC
Re: Frustrated at a large school - can't get time
I'll second that. You will probably need to build time afterwards anyway. The time is good to buy now. I paid 48,000 for a 172 back then, when they were expensive. You can get one now for less than 30K. Go for it.DaveC wrote:This is probably the best advice you'll find here.North Shore wrote:(Can't remember the legalities involved here, so please bear with me..)
Why not buy your own plane, and then just hire instructors - then the plane is always available?
Good luck, and have FUN!
If there is two of you that is minimum $20,000 in renting for the PPL you will spend at a school. If you are looking to fly afterwards (which would make sense) you will save a lot in the long term.
Also, instructors freelance cheaper than a school charges (cause the school gets a piece of it, of course).
In addition, when you hire a freelance instructor, you call the shots, you fly when you want...You are the boss.
Even when you pay, at a big school, they make you feel small, they put conditions on you, they overall have no client orientation. The school wants to churn out instructors, and instructors need to recommend students...and so on...
I felt in a school like oil lubricating the bearings...
My 2 cents tonight.
Success in life is when the cognac that you drink is older than the women you drink it with.
Re: Frustrated at a large school - can't get time
I'll second that. It was rather eye opening and disappointing, when I went back to a large school (self styled "College", actually, which always seemed silly to me). My PPL, night rating, seaplane rating, were done at a flying club and another small outfit - was lucky to fly with experienced, older instructors for the most part, including a recently retired Air Force Col. Very positive experiences overall.Expat wrote:Even when you pay, at a big school, they make you feel small, they put conditions on you, they overall have no client orientation. The school wants to churn out instructors, and instructors need to recommend students...and so on...
I felt in a school like oil lubricating the bearings...
My 2 cents tonight.
At the "College" it was entirely different - all the instructors walking around in white shirts with 3 or 4 bars on their shoulders, and a 19 yr old fresh class 4 assigned as my instructor.... The egos around there were incredible. Seemed like my money, as a "modular" student, wasn't as good as the money of others. And, don't get me wrong - I have nothing against uniforms - at an airline, with multicrew aircraft! But, WTF is an instructor in a Cessna or a Diamond doing with a bunch of gold on the shoulders??? Just inflates the ego.... I could see a golf shirt with school logo as a uniform, or something like that....
Coming from a very customer focused background in technology and as a training consultant, it boggled the mind the way the place treated people. Until I went there, I'd seriously considered going the class 4 route, but the cocky, inexperienced instructors around there left a bad taste in my mouth. I'd still like to do the instructor thing, ideally in a few years with some more time and lessons to pass on....it's always seemed backwards to see fresh CPLs getting instructor ratings and thinking they know everything. I think I'd be half competent at teaching an ab initio student the basics, perhaps to PPL level, but it seems inappropriate for someone with little experience to go much beyond that. In my books, the ideal thing would be a right seat somewhere at a decent company.... But that's a tangent.
Customer service at larger FTUs seems to be terrible, and the way you're treated is inversely proportional to the gold on the shoulders of the instructors.
All my opinion, of course.
Cheers,
Colin
