Putting a spouse on board

[FenderManDan]

Hi good folks, new member with a noob questions.

Before actually getting the licence and a carrying a passengers on board of the plane I have to solve tiny issue.

I always wanted to fly since I was born but certain life circumstances always got in a way. Now I have a opportunity to fulfill my dream, however first I have to sit down with the "better" half and discuss this. My missus is very, very practical and simple person and when I mention this to her she will probably laugh as if I am joking. Now, I am not implying that she runs my life and that she would say no (which she will) and that will not stop me (which will not). Just wanted lessen the friction or to put in the aviation terms (new to me) "decrease angle of attack" and avoid a (marriage) stall and spin .

Some info about me:
- Mid thirties, two kids, good fitness, good day job in IT field.
- Airplane and fan of flying since I was born.
- Skilled in mechanics/electronics and already know a bit on airplanes (Cessna 172s, long story for another topic)
- Goal and mission: to get PPL, be safe and skilled pilot and enjoy taking family and friends to adventure.
- Ultimate goal: To obtain a CPL and ratings to turn a hobby to income generator possibly (i have a bunch of business ideas).


The actual questions:
1. Can you please give me some ideas how explain this to someone who hates flying (airline at least) and get the things rolling?
2. I am planning to do a ground school in one of nearby (Toronto) FTUs and start flying I need a recommendation/opinion in regards to purchasing my own plane (probably mid 70s 172M/N) to train or should I go with FTU rental fleet and accomplish level of precision flying where I will not mess up my own plane?


Thank you

Best wishes and blue skies

Dan

[DaveC]

Hey Dan,

Welcome to the jungle.

Couldn't give you any advice from the married point of view, but..

As an IT guy who just graduated university working a FT IT job (getting paid quite well too). Got licensed in my 3rd year of university. Cost effectively, if you want to meet your ultimate goal, buying a plane is the way to go. I just got myself a share in a 150.. and I'm saving almost 50% off what a school would charge (60% after instructor mark up).

And.. stay in your IT job until you've got enough dough to get paid poverty level wages to build hours (or so what i've been told).

Make sure the wife is good with it (its going to take up a lot of your time, and money). Other than that...

[iflyforpie]

Well, you know what they say... happy wife, happy life!

If you are looking at a way to rationalize flying, you might be able to put the rose coloured glasses on and lead someone down the garden path for a while, but there is pretty much no way to do it. Making a business case for the aircraft is marginal at best... pretty much anything has been tried and failed at least once and sometimes so many times you wonder why people keep on doing it.

Your wife hates the airlines and there are a lot of things that light aircraft offer that the airlines don't. I haven't flown airlines in years. The privacy of your own aircraft. The availability of tons of airports on your schedule. The nice view down. The lack of security and checks (at least when staying in Canada).

But the disadvantages are nearly as many.

Flights in light aircraft are far more weather dependent often resulting in long delays that can be expensive and inconvenient. Here in BC I can do a trip in about 1/4 of the time in a 172 as I can in a car... but only if the weather is pretty much perfect. If it is less than perfect I don't go because I've had to leave too many aircraft behind because of weather.


If you want to go ahead and pursue it as a passion, then go right ahead. I was (am) fortunate enough to have a wife that not only supported my decision to fly commercially, but continues to support it in spite of tons of other better opportunities financially available to me. Going on 'road trips' with the family in the 172, and now the 337 as we have gotten bigger certainly has made for some awesome times and good memories.



For purchasing an aircraft, again it depends. For training specifically you can save a lot of money buying a plane vs renting an aircraft, as your costs are cheaper and you have an asset at the end. But a few heavy maintenance bills and minimal flying after you get your license can quickly erode any savings. Some schools refuse to train on privately owned aircraft since they don't make money on the rentals and because of the huge variation in serviceability of privately registered aircraft. Many will tack on a syllabus fee to the instructor rate.

The annual average flying of less than 50 hours a year on the aircraft I maintain makes their hourly amortized costs more than renting... but it is your own plane. Try and get into a partnership where four people pay but only one flies..

You've got to do some pretty bad flying to mess up an aircraft so I wouldn't worry about training in your own.

Stay away from the 172Ns, even with their modified engines they are for the most part junk. The 172M is where it is at.

[photofly]

For what it's worth, there's no way to justify buying a plane or learning to fly; other than you enjoy it, and you want to.

As soon as you say "it will save time" or "it will save money" or "it will earn money" or any other set of sweet words you will forever be a hostage to fortune; every time you plan a trip which gets cancelled or delayed because of weather; every time you get a five-figure maintenance bill; every time *anything* goes other than 100% smoothly - you can take your pick from sighs, rolled eyes, narrow looks, "I told you so" tones of voice, "you lied to me" expressions and every other indication of feminine displeasure that you can imagine (and some you can't, yet.)

As for turning it into a commercial enterprise, really, truly, don't get your hopes up about this until you have researched the phenomenal cost of commercial maintenance and absolutely mountainous paperwork involved. Way way beyond private aviation. And definitely don't try to sell your wife on it.

[cptn2016]

Dan,

Congrats on your decision to learn to fly - I've just started my PPL and like you am in a stable, well-paying job (I hesitate to call it a career...), and have made the choice to pursue this with an eye to a career change into aviation within 5 years.

Regarding the significant other...in my case I've tried to be as honest as I possibly could and I've tried very hard not to paint a rosy portrait - it will be difficult, I will commit a ton of time and money to this, we're going to be poor for a few years during the transition, we may have to live in places we wouldn't otherwise, and I will probably be away a lot.
But I do have a definite, detailed plan, I've done my research...this won't make us rich but we'll be able to live comfortably down the road, and I'll be doing something I love. I just honestly asked her if she would support me, and she has. So I'm very lucky. Anyway overall, I think if you try to make it sound better than it is, you're setting both of yourselves up for disappointment.

As far as her hate of flying goes, my wife is scared of it (getting better, but still scared in an airplane), doubly so when it's a small plane and you can feel each bump and hear every sound. I think though the more she flies the easier it will get, I think it's just like with airliners, the more you fly the more 'normal' it all feels and sounds, and the less fear there is. I think some quick explanations of what you're doing or of what is about to happen can go a long way to calm nervous flyers. To be completely honest, I started out with a fear of flying myself, but the more I flew the easier it got. Knowledge is calming.

My one other suggestion would be to take your time. I'm in my late 20's and I'm giving myself 5 years to switch over. We are both I think too old to be considered by major airlines, although I understand regionals are not out of the question, if your goal is that type of flying.
As tempting as it would be to borrow $60K (at least) and get my PPL, CPL, instructor, etc. all in one fell swoop, I've seen too many people caution against trying to start out with the weight of $60K in debt. I would rather spend my summers learning, using about $10K at a time and spending the winters keeping current and paying off large chunks of that. I plan to finish my licenses and ratings with under $10K in debt, which I think is going to be manageable.

Anyway from one noob to another, good luck!

[trey kule]

Ok. first of all , keep in mind that

"do whatever the f...k you want", does not actually meant what is seems to mean.

the truth is Dan, over the years people have asked me why I became a pilot. and I never really had a good answer. Kind of genetically programmed or something. Knew it from the time I was a little kid building model airplanes and trying to keep my fingers away from the prop of an .049 cox engine.
It, as my first ex-wife said, it about who you are, not what we do.

Which is my way of saying , if it is in your blood, you must do it. It is tough to explain, but hopefully she will understand.

BTW. Over the years, I have found, that pilots who learned to fly.."just because" were head and shoulders the best pilots around.
As an aside British Airways interviews , used to ask if you made model airplanes as a kid. It was one indication of a real love of flying.
Nowadays of course they ask about how you what you would say if you went for dinner with your captain and they showed up n a dress.

[FenderManDan]

the truth is Dan, over the years people have asked me why I became a pilot. and I never really had a good answer. Kind of genetically programmed or something. Knew it from the time I was a little kid building model airplanes and trying to keep my fingers away from the prop of an .049 cox engine.
It, as my first ex-wife said, it about who you are, not what we do.

Which is my way of saying , if it is in your blood, you must do it. It is tough to explain, but hopefully she will understand.
.......

As an aside British Airways interviews , used to ask if you made model airplanes as a kid. It was one indication of a real love of flying.
Nowadays of course they ask about how you what you would say if you went for dinner with your captain and they showed up n a dress.

Agree 10000% .. for the record not only did I build model airplanes as a kid (200+ in my room), their apron was on my sleeping pillow. Parents never understood and never bothered to buy them as a present, so I had to go hungry and use my elementary school lunch money allowance to buy them and hide them until they were build and painted. Sad but true.....
I went to university and did computer science as promising future career and that turned out fine, can't complain, however my head is in the clouds and not in front of the computer screen (OTOH Garmin G1000 looks cool).

Strange but the future will show... I will update you guys on the progress.

Thank you for your kind replies and support.

Cheers

Dan

[iflyforpie]

Nowadays of course they ask about how you what you would say if you went for dinner with your captain and they showed up n a dress.

Depends on whether they is a he or a she...

[MIQ]

Dan, I would have almost made the same mistake. I'm fairly young and left home, family and friends and followed my girlfriend to Canada. Moving (temporary or indefinite) to another country which is pretty far away from Europe was a big step for me and cost a lot of money and for a short time period I gave up my dream of becoming a pilot. Just because for some reason I never thought doing it in another country other than my home country. I almost signed up for a University program in Toronto, just to get a degree and get some kind of job. Last minute I looked again into an aviation career and gave it a thought. Luckily my family and girl friend (who works for Air Canada and knows the aviation business very well) are both very supporting and within two months I got everything figured out. Now I'm in my last step of the visa application process to switch over to a valid student permit and within a couple of weeks I should be able to start flying at a local flight school. Since I was little it has always been a dream for me to fly and I enjoyed everything about flying, airplanes and airports.
I don't want to imagine, what it would be like if I would have signed up for a university program and missed out on this chance of my life. It was always clear to me, that this is what I really want to do, no matter what. I really hope for you that you can find a good compromise with your wife, because that's all what a relationship/marriage is about. I would agree though on what was previously being said about pink coloured glasses, leave them away. That's just going to end up in disappointment and frustration. Both of you should know what you are signing up for. In my opinion partners in relationships should support each other and not be in each other's way. Sometimes it's just a little bit hard when she wants to go out for dinner and I cook Kraft Dinner instead just because I'd rather save those $50 for 0.25 hrs of flying or a decent aviation headset. Sometimes it's just important to find a good middle way (maybe some nice selfmade pasta as opposed to Kraft dinner ). Just don't give up your dream, you only live once.

[dazednconfused]

My one other suggestion would be to take your time. I'm in my late 20's and I'm giving myself 5 years to switch over. We are both I think too old to be considered by major airlines, although I understand regionals are not out of the question, if your goal is that type of flying.

I dont think you are too old for the majors. I'm in my early 30's and have spoken to a few AC/WJ pilots about age. While maybe not the norm, there are first officers hired in their 40's. Maybe others on the board can speak better to this - but i've learnt never let age hold you back from something.

[iflyforpie]

The only thing is, you will be behind in seniority and an upgrade will be years away.

Lots of other things to fly than airliners.

[System Message]

Keep your job and start flying all you can on the school airplanes while looking for one of your own. It does not have to have four seats and usually the plane with the smallest cockpit you can get away with will be the most fun to fly. After the first few times with the family you will have one rider or less and can still rent a larger plane when you want to take a trip. Fly all you can while adding ratings to your licence and be ready for opportunities as they come.

[padre12]

Don't forget about "AIDs": Aviation Induced Divorce Syndrome; it is remarkably common.

Go fly for fun - she might even like it! (I asked my wife to marry me in an airplane, and we're still together almost 20 years later! )

Good luck!

[att + pwr = perf]

Dan. Just explain to your wife that it is your passion. When you work the numbers it is difficult to do a business proposal on learning to fly. Keep your day job because the pay is the s--ts starting out. If you have a business opportunity once you get you PPL or CPL that is great. If you are able to buy an airplane it will decrease the cost of your licences because of the buildup time and you are able to fly when you want to not on some rental schedules. People are willing to do anything to get into a flying job, this includes selling out their friends or workmates to get into position for a job. This includes stabbing them in the back as required.

Bottom line. Fly because it is your passion, not to stomp over anyone in the way to get a job.

Good luck

[Gogona]

And.. stay in your IT job until you've got enough dough to get paid poverty level wages to build hours

Honestly, I would stay in my IT job forever, rather than... you know...

[Cat Driver]

If flying is in your DNA you will never recover from the condition.

I am one of the luckiest people on earth because not only did I attain most every goal I had in aviation I had 100 percent support from my wife for almost forty years.

She is gone now, but I am doing what she wanted me to do, I am back in aviation and am starting a new career as a pilot.

Life is what you make it, so never allow anyone to discourage you if you really want something.

. E.......no longer retired.

[Changes in Latitudes]

Dan, what passion of hers do you support? Be prepared to give and take a little bit, I'm sure she'll warm up to it if you're a good guy about it. If you don't encourage each other's passion and interests: you're not married, you're in a child raising partnership. Such a sad fate, go flying already.

[jump154]

I was in a similar situation, few years older..... Luckily my wife bought me (well, my daughters bought me) a discovery flight for a Father's Day gift. Was hard for her to say no once she saw the smile on my face (and me discovering that what I once thought was unobtainable actually was). Explain you are doing it for what it is, do not try to justify it economically, you never can. Compare how much come people spend a year on Golf, Boats, Vacations.... and let her know you can go to cool places for breakfast at weekends! Now I have my PPL, about 115 hours and building.

[AEROBAT]

My wife never has had a problem with me flying however her Dad had a '49 Bonanza and a Stinson 108 so she thought aviation was "normal'.

There was one summer a few years ago when I spent all my spare time re-building a plane she thought I was having an affair.

[FenderManDan]

Ok, here is an update. The "talk" did not go smoothly but at the end she "accepted" it in her head as the midlife crisis. The only caveat is that I have to sell the boat if I am going to buy a C-172 or something similar. She will get the passion part as I get through the training. Upwards we go, training will start by the end of the month. I have an instructor lined up. He is only class 4, however seems like a solid and reasonable person (he is from Ottawa, you know ). I will post the updates how it goes.

[burhead1]

Make sure she understands what it means to you.
Tell her how when that plane flies over you always look up
how you would draw planes in school, play with planes on the floor of your bedroom or in you bed before you went to sleep.
How you built that wood plane when you were four and plugged in the electric motor expecting to take off. (ok the las one was me LOL)
how you have pulled over on airport road and was all giddy as the jets came into Pearson.
She will most likely agree you need to follow your heart.

[ahramin]

Poor woman.

[FenderManDan]

Poor woman.

Sorry don't know who you are, however you are not helping here with the shallow comment. I am very serious about flying and a more constructive comment would be more appropriate.

[Beefitarian]

Easy Dan, it's the internet. We can't tell if you like to play a Stratocaster or fix cars.

He's right and it's not your fault. It's tough enough for people to be married. Marriage is hard, much tougher than it looks, adding airplanes increases the level of difficulty quite a bit. She obviously didn't love boating, this is more expensive and the training is pretty intensive.

Carry on and I'm too tired from my decade + of hard time after I allready had a private license, so I don't think I have any decent tips on being nice to your spouse to make up for wanting to fly. IIRC they like foot rubs.

[Dagwood]

I thought ahramin meant that your wife would be missing out on the fun of flying. As you learn to fly, she could be a wonderful support, and someone who can enjoy flying with you even though she is not taking lessons. If she digs in her heals at any mention of aviation, there might be little you can do, and she could be missing out on something enjoyable for the both of you.