Are Porter's FA's Unionizing and are Pilots next?

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Are Porter's FA's Unionizing and are Pilots next?

Post by Beach 200 »

So I heard that the Flight Attendant's have been approached by CUPE to form a union? Any leads if this is going to happen or just company gossip. Last I heard the CEO was pleading his case to effectively "persuade" this from happening thru mass email. I guess the business strategy that carried through from Air Ontario isn't going to work again this time, employees are getting pissed off with working conditions that they want a Union!
Are the pilot's still looking at ALPA? Porter is surely not going to look very good in the next IPO attempt with unionized labour.
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Re: Are Porter's FA's Unionizing and are Pilots next?

Post by invertedattitude »

Good on them!

The general hatred by some pilots in this country of unions is because of poorly RUN unions, not unions in general.

The problem with most unions is that they are run by the employees, who most often have 0 labour relation training and can often be led astray.

A properly led union is a powerful force for employees, and can in some cases improve the working relationship with the company... (Mostly by keeping them in check)
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Re: Are Porter's FA's Unionizing and are Pilots next?

Post by True North »

I know nothing of the working conditions or job satisfaction level at Porter but having a union "approach" an employee group is no indication there is any dissatisfaction. That's what unions do. They are a business and need to grow so they recruit so the execs can continue to collect their paychecks.

On the other hand, it has been my experience that every company gets the union they deserve.
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Re: Are Porter's FA's Unionizing and are Pilots next?

Post by Bede »

invertedattitude wrote:Good on them!

The general hatred by some pilots in this country of unions is because of poorly RUN unions, not unions in general.

The problem with most unions is that they are run by the employees, who most often have 0 labour relation training and can often be led astray.

A properly led union is a powerful force for employees, and can in some cases improve the working relationship with the company... (Mostly by keeping them in check)
Actually, I hate unions because they don't give the result's they advertise and are way past their time. I was part of a well run union at Jazz and I still think union's suck. Great guys representing me, but every time I cracked open Airline Pilot magazine it was pictures of Capt. John Prater with Barack Obama, Capt John Prater with Nancy Pelosi, Capt. John Prater with some other politician. They never ceased to tell me who I should vote for. I'd be offended if my current company told me how to vote for.

Ask your union reps where your money goes. 100% of the ALPA dues go APLA USA and they give a very small percentage back to national council.

I've been paid better at my non unionized jobs than my unionized jobs.

Rant over.
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Re: Are Porter's FA's Unionizing and are Pilots next?

Post by justwork »

Unions... be very careful. People get upset about this or that and next thing you know you have someone spreading Union propaganda. People actually start to believe that a union will instantly change working conditions. In my experience nothing changes overnight. Unless your company is run like one in the industrial revolution, nothing will change quickly. Now your dues, those start being paid instantly.
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Re: Are Porter's FA's Unionizing and are Pilots next?

Post by prop2jet »

Actually, I hate unions because they don't give the result's they advertise and are way past their time. I was part of a well run union at Jazz and I still think union's suck. Great guys representing me, but every time I cracked open Airline Pilot magazine it was pictures of Capt. John Prater with Barack Obama, Capt John Prater with Nancy Pelosi, Capt. John Prater with some other politician. They never ceased to tell me who I should vote for. I'd be offended if my current company told me how to vote for.
"

Bede: You are fortunate to be working for a Company where the interests of at least Management and the Pilot Group are aligned, at least for the time being. Though the pilot's of Westjet may not be defined as "unionized" they are organized by way of association and have their own interests and objectives that are apart from any of the other labour "components".

Based on what you have stated above, it sounds like your "beef" with ALPA has more to do with the flow of cash south of the border and it's political component. Large Union's are in fact Lobby groups and as such devote much time lobbying the politicians. In the case of ALPA, the lobby is of course aviation related and it's sole focus is on ensuring that the interests of it's group are heard, etc. Much of the legislation that is enacted in the U.S. can have (and has had) consequences for us in Canada.

From your perspective you were better compensated in a non union environment, that may be true but I doubt you were better protected. Many of us don't look at that side of the coin and perhaps we should.
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Re: Are Porter's FA's Unionizing and are Pilots next?

Post by rudder »

If it had not been for ALPA, its volunteers, its staff experts, and its very deep pockets that funded the external legal resources that were necessary during the protracted restructuring process, Jazz and the Jazz pilots would have been crushed in the AC CCAA process. And who knows, perhaps there will be another AC CCAA event.

And now the First Air family are going to endure one of the most difficult periods in the wake of the tregic accident in Resolute. All of ALPA's resources are fully activated and available. ALPA has already received status in the accident investigation and will have staff and volunteers accessible to the First Air pilots for support.

Air Line piloting isn't just about flying planes. Having access to these resources seems worth the 2% to me.
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Re: Are Porter's FA's Unionizing and are Pilots next?

Post by teacher »

Bede wrote:
invertedattitude wrote:Good on them!

The general hatred by some pilots in this country of unions is because of poorly RUN unions, not unions in general.

The problem with most unions is that they are run by the employees, who most often have 0 labour relation training and can often be led astray.

A properly led union is a powerful force for employees, and can in some cases improve the working relationship with the company... (Mostly by keeping them in check)
Actually, I hate unions because they don't give the result's they advertise and are way past their time. I was part of a well run union at Jazz and I still think union's suck. Great guys representing me, but every time I cracked open Airline Pilot magazine it was pictures of Capt. John Prater with Barack Obama, Capt John Prater with Nancy Pelosi, Capt. John Prater with some other politician. They never ceased to tell me who I should vote for. I'd be offended if my current company told me how to vote for.

Ask your union reps where your money goes. 100% of the ALPA dues go APLA USA and they give a very small percentage back to national council.

I've been paid better at my non unionized jobs than my unionized jobs.

Rant over.
Better paid maybe but not better protected IMHO. If WJ execs decided to play hardball they could easily run the pilot association into the ground. The programs, legislation and other initiatives that ALPA supports (see flight duty time lobbying among many others) will be the benefit of all pilots, even those not paying dues.
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Re: Are Porter's FA's Unionizing and are Pilots next?

Post by Bede »

prop2jet wrote: Based on what you have stated above, it sounds like your "beef" with ALPA has more to do with the flow of cash south of the border and it's political component. Large Union's are in fact Lobby groups and as such devote much time lobbying the politicians.
You're pretty much correct, I don't like my dues going south with the union bosses deciding where my money goes and than taking credit for sending some of it back my way. Personally, like I mentioned, I was impressed with the union leadership at Jazz. The other option is an association that balances the interests of pilots with shareholder interests where both management and labour work together for the advancement of both causes. If WJA management tried to crush the WJPA, it would be the end of WestJet's success. They're smart and ethical enough not to try. I understand some management is different, but Jazz management would probably be a lot different if an adversarial relationship didn't exist.

WRT "better protected". Protected from who? Management? Quite frankly if management ever wanted to get rid of me, it's their loss. I work my tail off everyday to do the best job I can. If they don't appreciate that, I'll go somewhere that does whether that's in aviation or another sector.

On a larger scale, if management had to get rid of a lot of people to save the company, a union won't help. The union bosses can throw their hands in the air and go on TV (aka CAW) and people will still lose their jobs. From basic economics 101 we learn that wage rates are inversely proportional to employment. If you're overpaid, you'll have a higher probability of losing your job. Look where most of the job losses are: in heavily unionized sectors. I would argue that a union decreases your job security. In addition, if management had to save a company and lay people off, I'd prefer that than management keeping people on and than going bankrupt a year later throwing every one out of work.
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Re: Are Porter's FA's Unionizing and are Pilots next?

Post by Stu Pidasso »

The Jazz Pilots are the highest paid, Regional Turbo Prop Pilots, in North America. I would put some of the credit to ALPA.

On the CUPE front - worse Union in the Country. Out of control Socialists, that have turned their backs on their own members more than once.
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Re: Are Porter's FA's Unionizing and are Pilots next?

Post by prop2jet »

Bede: "Protection" comes in many forms. Your argument is again focused on the monetary aspect. I have stated as a few others have that there is more to ALPA membership than the pursuit of high pay. I am not going to start listing every single thing that ALPA membership provides, if one is interested then they can read for themselves:


http://www.alpa.org/portals/alpa/abouta ... re2011.pdf
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Re: Are Porter's FA's Unionizing and are Pilots next?

Post by invertedattitude »

For what it's worth no union Should officially "tell" you who to vote for.

However for the sake of your collective bargaining rights, generally there is a better choice for you and your family... IE Wisconsin.

All those rights WJA pilots enjoy are because of items unions for other airlines fought and won years ago, not because of good will, never forget that.

What Westjet does is fantastic, but if god forbid the proverbial caca hits the fan, you have 0 protection.
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Re: Are Porter's FA's Unionizing and are Pilots next?

Post by Rotten Apple #1 »

Inverted, just curious what 'rights' you are referring to wrt to WJ pilots. Sounds more like a glib comment, rather than a valid argumentation point.

i.e. our profit share, 20% matching Employee Stock Purchase program, stock options, port program, online shift trading, non-seniority driven schedule and vacation bidding (to name a few, there are others) are certainly not due to any previous organization's contracts, they were established in response to what we didn't want from those unionized outfits.

There is lots of goodwill between our pilots and ,management, and that isn't due to previous unions (well, except we didn't want the antagonistic relationship that the unions generally encourage).

Respectfully, inverted, your post sounds like parade-banner jingoism. Why don't you elaborate with some more detail and maybe I/we could understand your opinion some more.
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Re: Are Porter's FA's Unionizing and are Pilots next?

Post by Rotten Apple #1 »

What Westjet does is fantastic, but if god forbid the proverbial caca hits the fan, you have 0 protection.
Okay. That would be the glass-half-empty view dot dot dot
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Re: Are Porter's FA's Unionizing and are Pilots next?

Post by YYZSaabGuy »

invertedattitude wrote:For what it's worth no union Should officially "tell" you who to vote for. However for the sake of your collective bargaining rights, generally there is a better choice for you and your family... IE Wisconsin. All those rights WJA pilots enjoy are because of items unions for other airlines fought and won years ago, not because of good will, never forget that. What Westjet does is fantastic, but if god forbid the proverbial caca hits the fan, you have 0 protection.
Actually, unions don't provide much protection for flight crew at large when "the proverbial caca hits the fan" - a different story, admittedly, when an individual pilot runs into a disciplinary or other problem, but en masse? No, sorry, they just don't. Joining a union doesn't exempt anybody from the impact of basic economic principles. Mainline labour relations are what they are because the economics of the business suck, plain and simple: too small a revenue/profit pie, high fixed costs, minimal barriers to entry, dumbass government legislation, and everybody fighting tooth and nail for their piece. Unions tend to see their role as an adversarial one dedicated to "protecting" what's already been won rather than trying to grow the pie through better/smarter work practices. And lest anybody think I'm picking on unions, they are all too often encouraged in this role by unenlightened senior management, many of whom have no idea of what leadership looks like.

WJA seems to be an exception, and while I find their on-board humour a bit corny sometimes, and the seat pitch is tough on anybody much over 5'6", and I find their references to "Captain Bob and First Officer Adam" just plain unprofessional, let's give credit where credit is due: they run a pretty good operation and they make money doing it, something a lot of their unionized competitors haven't figured out yet.
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Re: Are Porter's FA's Unionizing and are Pilots next?

Post by invertedattitude »

OT J wrote:Inverted, just curious what 'rights' you are referring to wrt to WJ pilots. Sounds more like a glib comment, rather than a valid argumentation point.

i.e. our profit share, 20% matching Employee Stock Purchase program, stock options, port program, online shift trading, non-seniority driven schedule and vacation bidding (to name a few, there are others) are certainly not due to any previous organization's contracts, they were established in response to what we didn't want from those unionized outfits.

There is lots of goodwill between our pilots and ,management, and that isn't due to previous unions (well, except we didn't want the antagonistic relationship that the unions generally encourage).

Respectfully, inverted, your post sounds like parade-banner jingoism. Why don't you elaborate with some more detail and maybe I/we could understand your opinion some more.

Ok I'll try to elaborate then.

First off I want to make sure it's understood that I think what WestJet has done with it's employees (all groups) is a model for all companies worldwide, they actually treat their employees like people, not numbers, if every company treated their employees with this kind of respect, and decency then maybe unions would go by the wayside.

Lets not forget unions were initially formed to improve working conditions, safety etc.

When I said that benefits you guys enjoy that other unions fought and won for (Not just pilots), would include safe working conditions, hours of work, vacation time, overtime etc.

These things were less than common in the workplace before unions came along.

Also don't forget that WestJet has good reason to treat you guys so well... its generally going to be more cost effective to treat you all good, provide fair wages because if they have you on their side then you're not going to be harbouring animosity like many employees of other less fortunate companies do. The direct cost of this means employees trying to fight for themselves not for the greater good, and the company trying to do the same right back.


I don't have time to go into a diatribe about why unions can and are in many cases a good thing, but I will admit that in a lot of cases they are a caustic entity which breaks down companies and workplaces alike.

Lets just run one scenario, unlikely it would seem considering what WestJet has been through without much trouble already but, just for arguments sake:

Company takes a turn for the worse, starts routinely losing money. It's an airline, not exactly an impossible scenario we all can agree.
Company decides that well, we are going to take the money from this over-paid pilots now.

Share plan dries up. Everyones retirement plan just stopped growing (I realize most of you diversify, but for company-employee sake this is your retirement plan)

Company decides massive pay-cuts are in order, 25% slash in pay to bring costs in order.

Scheduling is far too flexible to be cost effective... all scheduling now done by managment, you'll work what they give you.

Per-Diems are drastically reduced.

Shift-scheduling restrictions meant to protect health of airport employees are now gone in favour of most cost effective options (IE Layoffs)

------------------------

What I'm driving at here is that at any given time, should the company decide to just change your payscales/benefits the employees have little recourse to fighting it.

Unions were designed to protect the employees, I admit that's not always the role it takes, but in principal many of them do just that.
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Re: Are Porter's FA's Unionizing and are Pilots next?

Post by invertedattitude »

YYZSaabGuy wrote:Joining a union doesn't exempt anybody from the impact of basic economic principles.
Yes it does, history has proven that companies cry wolf when times are bad to try and take more than they need from their employees using hard times as an excuse, the unions job during these times to ensure the concessions are as little as possible to keep a company afloat until good times come back.
YYZSaabGuy wrote:Unions tend to see their role as an adversarial one dedicated to "protecting" what's already been won rather than trying to grow the pie through better/smarter work practices.
That's a pretty bold statement, I can assure you that's not the case where I work. In fact our union has several committes with the company designed to work together to design better efficiencies for our customers. Any union president with a head on their shoulders needs to realize a company has the right to manage, so it's in our best interests on all sides to work together to end up with solutions that not only work for the company, but work better for us as well.

WJA seems to be an exception, and while I find their on-board humour a bit corny sometimes, and the seat pitch is tough on anybody much over 5'6", and I find their references to "Captain Bob and First Officer Adam" just plain unprofessional, let's give credit where credit is due: they run a pretty good operation and they make money doing it, something a lot of their unionized competitors haven't figured out yet.
Agree 100% especially on the seat pitch :)
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Re: Are Porter's FA's Unionizing and are Pilots next?

Post by Realitychex »

WJ's -600 and -700's are 32" pitch, (but if you know the lopa, there are lots of 33" scattered throughout) and the -800's are 34".

The competition's narrow body airbus are all 31-32", the CRJ7's are 34" and the EMB's are 32-33".

I'd say it's pretty much a wash.

At 189 seat capacity in their -800's, both Sunwing and Canjet are at 30".

8)
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Re: Are Porter's FA's Unionizing and are Pilots next?

Post by YYZSaabGuy »

invertedattitude wrote:
YYZSaabGuy wrote:Joining a union doesn't exempt anybody from the impact of basic economic principles.
Yes it does, history has proven that companies cry wolf when times are bad to try and take more than they need from their employees using hard times as an excuse, the unions job during these times to ensure the concessions are as little as possible to keep a company afloat until good times come back.

Sorry, I didn't explain myself terribly well. You're talking tactics, I'm talking strategy. I agree that short-term, there will always be pressure on op costs, particularly so in down markets: management will trim aggressively, and unions will fight to minimize the impact on their membership. My point was that long-run, union membership in a bankrupt airline that's busily liquidating itself is cold comfort.
YYZSaabGuy wrote:Unions tend to see their role as an adversarial one dedicated to "protecting" what's already been won rather than trying to grow the pie through better/smarter work practices.
That's a pretty bold statement, I can assure you that's not the case where I work. In fact our union has several committes with the company designed to work together to design better efficiencies for our customers. Any union president with a head on their shoulders needs to realize a company has the right to manage, so it's in our best interests on all sides to work together to end up with solutions that not only work for the company, but work better for us as well.

Fair enough, and good on 'em. I'm a little cynical about the motivation, but regardless of that, the outcome is what's important and what you've outlined is the way it's supposed to work.
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Re: Are Porter's FA's Unionizing and are Pilots next?

Post by TheSuit »

Unions don't sink companies; people do. Unions were absolutely necessary at their inception because most industrialists in the early days would have no problem working their employees to death. As labor laws were virtually non-existant, this wasn't particularily difficult to do. The union was the only recourse employees had to fight for their basic rights as human beings. Once the unions started growing into single source labor contractors, they began to lose the plot. The resulting Mexican standoff cycle is inevitable as neither side can walk away. Neither side trusts each other because they are no longer on a team, so the point is to now get more from the other side. Once the company is divided into a bunch of predatory groups picking at the scraps as is the case aviation, any average competitor can swoop in and steal your whole supper. A well run union that can actually work with shareholder and customer interests is a great thing, but once the power/greed sets in on either side, it's over.

If I was an employeer like WestJet or Porter, I would do whatever I could to keep my employees happy and away from the union. The threat of the union is far more useful than the union itself.
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Re: Are Porter's FA's Unionizing and are Pilots next?

Post by WetJet »

Companies get the union they deserve, but employees get the union they are willing to work for and support.
If you don't like your union, get involved and CHANGE it.

Thanks to ALPA at Transat, I'm getting close to $500 extra per month right now because our company has been slow on implementing changes agreed upon during the last contract. Some guys are getting close to $1000. It was a battle to get it, but our ALPA guys (and lawyer) came through for us. This extra dough will be covering my tax deductible union dues for years.

During the last contract negotiations one of our members sent out some some anonymous mass emails to our members reminding them to support our negotiations. The company figured out who it was and suspended him for 3 months, without pay. Again, after a fight with the company, ALPA had him reinstated, with back pay. I heard him say that his ALPA union dues came through by saving him $45,000 in lost salary. Would a "pilots association" have been able to do that? Would they have been willing to stick their necks out like ALPA did for this guy? Nobody can say for sure.
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Re: Are Porter's FA's Unionizing and are Pilots next?

Post by Rotten Apple #1 »

WetJet wrote:Thanks to ALPA at Transat, I'm getting close to $500 extra per month right now because our company has been slow on implementing changes agreed upon during the last contract. Some guys are getting close to $1000. It was a battle to get it, but our ALPA guys (and lawyer) came through for us. This extra dough will be covering my tax deductible union dues for years.

During the last contract negotiations one of our members sent out some some anonymous mass emails to our members reminding them to support our negotiations. The company figured out who it was and suspended him for 3 months, without pay. Again, after a fight with the company, ALPA had him reinstated, with back pay. I heard him say that his ALPA union dues came through by saving him $45,000 in lost salary. Would a "pilots association" have been able to do that? Would they have been willing to stick their necks out like ALPA did for this guy? Nobody can say for sure.
The timing of your remarks is rather unfortunate gven the financial results just announced today by your company. JME's remarks were unusually candid.
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Re: Are Porter's FA's Unionizing and are Pilots next?

Post by invertedattitude »

OT J wrote:
WetJet wrote:Thanks to ALPA at Transat, I'm getting close to $500 extra per month right now because our company has been slow on implementing changes agreed upon during the last contract. Some guys are getting close to $1000. It was a battle to get it, but our ALPA guys (and lawyer) came through for us. This extra dough will be covering my tax deductible union dues for years.

During the last contract negotiations one of our members sent out some some anonymous mass emails to our members reminding them to support our negotiations. The company figured out who it was and suspended him for 3 months, without pay. Again, after a fight with the company, ALPA had him reinstated, with back pay. I heard him say that his ALPA union dues came through by saving him $45,000 in lost salary. Would a "pilots association" have been able to do that? Would they have been willing to stick their necks out like ALPA did for this guy? Nobody can say for sure.
The timing of your remarks is rather unfortunate gven the financial results just announced today by your company. JME's remarks were unusually candid.
So because the company is mis-managed and losing money ALPA shouldn't have protected it's employee from union busting tactics?
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Re: Are Porter's FA's Unionizing and are Pilots next?

Post by TheSuit »

invertedattitude wrote:So because the company is mis-managed and losing money ALPA shouldn't have protected it's employee from union busting tactics?
Since when is nickel and diming your employer protection from management? I haven't decided if any of these know-it-all pilots are actually aware of how greedy, selfish and shortsighted they are and are putting on political show or they actually believe the sob stories they spin. Just admit you want more money for less work (or for free in the instance you pointed out) and that you are no different than the shareholders and managers you loathe. I thought Animal Farm was required reading in Canadian schools.
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Re: Are Porter's FA's Unionizing and are Pilots next?

Post by Rotten Apple #1 »

NOTE: TheSuit attributes a quote in the post above to me. It was InvertedAttitude who made the statement.


I'm not sure which dog is yours in this fight Inverted. Last I knew you were in a public sector union (in essence) with no competitors in your space. Before ATC, you chucked bags. Or is there some other work experience relevant to private industry unions I am unaware of.

There is probably a lot more to the Transat story above. 3 months off is a long time for distributing information. What exactly was in those leaflets?

The Transat employee above seems more connected to his union, than he does his employer. He should be worried more about the survival of his company. Too often a union employee takes the approach, "the company negotiated the contract, its up to management to make money within that framework."

In my company it would be all hands on deck if we lost that much money. We'd all have to give a bit. We were in fact quite close to pay cuts in 2008. Imagine being a US Postal Service employee where there is a 'no layoffs' clause. How does a corporation cope with recessionary times? Luckily Inverted, in your line of work layoffs are not likely.

For those who think ALPA is so great, take a look at the US Airways/America West merger in 2004 (?). The two pilot groups are still not flying together. The Easties (original US Air) took their ball and went home. And as a result, US Air will never make any money.

How about the 'industry leading' contracts that United pilots crowed about when their union negotiated them. Do you think that maybe just maybe the union knew that they were handcuffing the profitability of their employer? Take a look at their pension now.

No sir I've been in ALPA and 2 other pilot unions. Forget it. I'll take what I have now. It is different having an assoication like ours. It is more a collaborative relationship with management than most are used to. I have to remind the odd ex-Jazz guy that you can't cherry pike perks from the Jazz contract and say we should have that blah blah blah. You have to take the whole package in consideration. AS WJ employees, we routinely get improvements in our wages and working conditions that have nothing to do with quid pro quo negotiations, i.e.,, you give me this and I' take away that. Lots of times things get changed at WJ because our leadership did a survey and found out employes aren't happy about something.

But I digress. If you are in a union now, you won't get it. Which is fine.

Cheers all. Safe flying and happy grievance filing.


John
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