Departing with Frost

[FICU]

Tis the season so make sure you walk back far enough in the cabin to inspect the spoilers and ailerons, not just the fuel tanks for frost Westjeters. You should know by now that clear skies overnight creates frost, especially on the thinest parts of the wing and stab.

If Transport was riding in the back you would have been busted this morning Captain.

[slob driver]

Did you bring it to the attention of the crew?

[FICU]

Did you bring it to the attention of the crew?

I didn't notice it until the cabin lights were dimmed as we rolled on to the runway. I asked other deadheading crew members afterwards and they confirmed the frost covering the entire aft portion of the wings.

Last winter under these exact same conditions, although it was daylight, I did bring it to the crew's attention and the push was stopped and the aircraft was deiced after multiple inspections by the crew and ground workers who only inspected the top of the fuel tanks looking for fuel frost until I pointed out the contamination to the F/A for the second time.

A reminder to be thorough when checking for frost in the morning.

[Legacy]

Did you bring it to the attention of the crew?

I didn't notice it until the cabin lights were dimmed as we rolled on to the runway. I asked other deadheading crew members afterwards and they confirmed the frost covering the entire aft portion of the wings.

Last winter under these exact same conditions, although it was daylight, I did bring it to the crew's attention and the push was stopped and the aircraft was deiced after multiple inspections by the crew and ground workers who only inspected the top of the fuel tanks looking for fuel frost until I pointed out the contamination to the F/A for the second time.

A reminder to be thorough when checking for frost in the morning.

Sounds a bit funny to me. You can easily see the frost on the wings when sitting at the gate and all the terminals lights shining on the wing. Clean wing is shiny, frost covered is very noticably opaque.

[FICU]

I fly a 737 so I do have some knowledge regarding this.

I was in an isle seat and didn't look out the window until the cabin lights were dimmed. Nothing funny about it considering this is the second time I have experienced this on WJ. The first time was blatantly obvious in daylight conditions. It surprises me that the entire crew missed it in both cases.

[LisaS]

He starts this bullshit every year. Grow up. Cannot believe you didn't mention it to the crew. You are an asshat.



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[Legacy]

Especially when the ground crew is very proactive in informing the crew of requiring deice. Would you care to infrm us of of which flight number and date this took place?

[Biff]

Was probably just moisture. Not sure what the temp outside was, but I've seen it look like frost from the inside cabin.

As an aside, our deicing crews across the country are very proactive, usually before I get a chance to tell them I need a spray they are coming up and either saying "you have frost on your wings we have to spray you" or "we did a tactile on your wing and it's just moisture". It's very nice having their expert opinion, rather than an anonymous opinion on the web!!

[double-j]

Are you sure it wasnt moisture? I was operating a flight that morning and observed what looked like frost. I had the ground crew do a tactile on the trailing flaps and ailerons which turned out to be condensation. Outside air temp 02 degrees. Not sure when your flight departed and not saying it didnt happen but was very difficult for me to determine in the aircraft without a positive tactile inspection.

jj

[CANAM]

I find it suspicious that you offer no photo evidence in today's era of smartphones, yet took the time to post this comment.

[FICU]

One of my crew members who had a window seat confirmed it as frost when I asked about it later and no, I won't implicate one of your crews.

No picture because it was dark when we boarded and dawn when we departed. I looked out the window as we rolled on to the runway after the cabin lights had just been dimmed and there was no time to call since it was an immediate take-off. I also know the capability of the aircraft but that isn't the point.

I do have a picture of the frosted wing from last winter's experience and because you asked I'll post it when I get home.

For those of you who think your teal colored shit doesn't stink... you may be in for a rude awakening one day.

[double-j]

As I previously posted yesterday when I did the walkaround I did observe something that could have been frost so I had the rampies positively confirm it was not frost, it was dark as well. Perhaps what your crewmember thought was frost was just condensation. As you said, it was dark as well.

A good reminder nonetheless that it is that time again and we must all remain vigilant.

jj

[FlightLight]

For those of you who think your teal colored shit doesn't stink... you may be in for a rude awakening one day.

I think you just revealed your true intentions and motives for your original post - that is to incite hatred. I honestly don't think anybody will fall for your antics.

I also look forward to a picture of a 737's contaminated wing. As you said yourself,

I fly a 737 so I do have some knowledge regarding this.

[Donald]

A good reminder nonetheless that it is that time again and we must all remain vigilant.

All that needs to be said about this topic, and it didn't need to be only in the WJ forum, it should have been posted in General.

[FICU]

As I previously posted yesterday when I did the walkaround I did observe something that could have been frost so I had the rampies positively confirm it was not frost, it was dark as well. Perhaps what your crewmember thought was frost was just condensation. As you said, it was dark as well.

A good reminder nonetheless that it is that time again and we must all remain vigilant.

Thanks jj and I understand but this was frost.

Exactly... the point of this thread. Too bad some of your co-workers who think no employee at their company can do wrong have to derail it.

Attached is the wing picture, I had a window seat that time, as we pushed back with no pax briefing of de-icing, only that we would be early to our destination. This is the flight I notified the F/A who then notified the Captain and we were subsequently de-iced. This was missed by the pilots, F/As, and the ground crew.

What would Transport have to say had they been sitting in my seat? This thread isn't about getting crews in trouble it's about keeping them out of trouble!

[KBAMan]

Edited: I have been asked to remove this posting by mods and my management. My sincere apologies to you all.

[FlightLight]

I would have believed the photo if had been taken in any other location - like at the hold short line for example. I have seen WestJet deice at their gates hundreds of times.

[Legacy]

Like I said, this stuff can EASILY be spotted at the terminal on the gate. LOTS of light from the overhead lights at the terminal to see this. Not sure why you didnt see it then. Just remember, its just as much your duty to comment on the frost as anyone elses. I am not saying anyone is to blame but for the ground crew, FAs, flight crew,etc to not notice frost then perhaps it formed between taxi and take off. Not sure. But there are other ways of going about "announcing" stuff like this instead of on forums. You maybe should have commented to the pilots themselves after the flight.

[FICU]

I would have believed the photo if had been taken in any other location - like at the hold short line for example. I have seen WestJet deice at their gates hundreds of times.

You really crack me up! Are you another Westjetter who just won't believe this is possible? I would never have let it get to a hold short line which is why I contacted the F/A during push back once I knew for sure we weren't going to de-ice.

[whiteguy]

He starts this bullshit every year. Grow up. Cannot believe you didn't mention it to the crew. You are an asshat.



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Is this the kind of response you could expect if you do bring it up with the crew?

[FICU]

Like I said, this stuff can EASILY be spotted at the terminal on the gate. LOTS of light from the overhead lights at the terminal to see this. Not sure why you didnt see it then. Just remember, its just as much your duty to comment on the frost as anyone elses. I am not saying anyone is to blame but for the ground crew, FAs, flight crew,etc to not notice frost then perhaps it formed between taxi and take off. Not sure. But there are other ways of going about "announcing" stuff like this instead of on forums. You maybe should have commented to the pilots themselves after the flight.

I was in an aisle seat, it was dark when we boarded, the cabin was full of light, and I didn't bother to look out the window although now I most definitely will be checking the wings. The flight deck door was closed when I got off.

I'll repeat myself again to show how proactive I am...

"Last winter under these exact same conditions(see the picture above), although it was daylight, I did bring it to the crew's attention and the push was stopped and the aircraft was deiced after multiple inspections by the crew and ground workers who only inspected the top of the fuel tanks looking for fuel frost until I pointed out the contamination to the F/A for the second time." More detail...

The Captain, when informed, came on the PA and told the cabin that he suspected it was fuel frost and that there should be no delay (I know you guys have an exemption inside the black lines) but he would send back the F/O to inspect it. The F/O came into the cabin and walked as far as the leading edge and went back. A ramp worker then did a tactile inspection on a ladder at the leading edge of the wing and on top of the fuel tank, which was clean. It wasn't until I got the F/A back and had her look out the window to see it with her own eyes that another tactile inspection was done from the trailing edge. The F/O didn't even walk back far enough to see the frost because he assumed it was fuel frost. The Captain then came back on the P/A and advised the cabin we would be de-icing.

I think KBAman may be right and this could be a culture issue. I have over 4000 hours on the 737 so I'm not talking out of my ass yet so many of you think that what I have experienced twice is not possible at your company even when a picture is posted. Maybe the only way to create awareness for this issue is to report the crews to Westjet and Transport Canada so an internal memo can be put out to better educate everyone. Is that what you would prefer over this forum?

[Legacy]

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I think KBAman may be right and this could be a culture issue. I have over 4000 hours on the 737 so I'm not talking out of my ass yet so many of you think that what I have experienced twice is not possible at your company even when a picture is posted. Maybe the only way to create awareness for this issue is to report the crews to Westjet and Transport Canada so an internal memo can be put out to better educate everyone. Is that what you would prefer over this forum?

So mentioning it here really helps? If you thought it required mentioning, the FAs could have passed your concern to the flight crew. Using the reason that the door was closed? Highly doubt the crew that was flying that flight comes on here to see your post. Mentioning it to the crew would have been the best course of action.

[Biff]

Tis the season so make sure you walk back far enough in the cabin to inspect the spoilers and ailerons, not just the fuel tanks for frost Westjeters. You should know by now that clear skies overnight creates frost, especially on the thinest parts of the wing and stab.

If Transport was riding in the back you would have been busted this morning Captain.

KBAMan,

The above quote is the first full post of the thread. Not knowing where the aircraft departed from, what the weather conditions where, when the aircraft was last flown or what the temperature of the fuel was, I came up with a plausible senerio. For this you say you are "shocked at the comments of the other respondants"?????

Once again I will state that over the years (about 6000hours 737) I've seen, from the cabin windows, what I thought was frost on the wing(including trailing edge devices) and called the deicers for a spray. After they completed a tactile inspection, I have on a number of those occasions being told it was moisture not frost, however they would spray me if I wanted it. The times it was just moisture I refused the spray. The morale of the story is that if I, with about 6000 hours on the 737 can mistake moisture for frost from looking out a cabin window, I suspect someone with about 4000 hours on the 737 can probably make the same mistake, just as I suspect someone with 10000 hours can make the same mistake.

As far as you pulling your application....Ok....

ps if you like, feel free to PM me your name and phone number and I'll let DP know you don't want him to call you.

[FICU]

So mentioning it here really helps? If you thought it required mentioning, the FAs could have passed your concern to the flight crew. Using the reason that the door was closed? Highly doubt the crew that was flying that flight comes on here to see your post. Mentioning it to the crew would have been the best course of action.

I seriously doubt I would have been believed after my experience last year and now after seeing the response on the forum solidifies it even more. Anyway, there are enough Westjetters on the forum here including Dave P who will have gotten the message.

Question... are your F/A's trained and or encouraged to look at the wings for frost or do they expect it to be done by the pilots and ground crew?

[KAG]

We have embraced the clean wing concept at Westjet, and believe me this get touched on repeatedly throughout the year. If you catch anything that is out of the ordinary please bring it to our attention, and it will get addressed.

As for the cultural comments believe what you want. I was a skeptic myself. But trust me when i say, do a walk through sample the koolaid and you will see things differently

All joking aside, KBAman withdrawal your resume as you want. To call us lacking in free thought is insulting.