Seasonal Pilots - Do you get Overtime & Benefits?

[180]

After 15 years of bush flying, (10 of those years seasonally on floats), I've worked for 5 companies in 4 Provinces.

Of those 5 companies, not a single company has had an employment contract to sign, 2 companies paid overtime, and only 1 company provided the most basic of medical and dental benefits.

As a low time bush pilot, standing up for your legal rights regarding overtime tends to take a back seat to time-building; and pointing out that even a 14 year-old summer-time employee at McDonalds or Tim Hortons signs an employment contract and receives benefits will guarantee you a trouble-making label and the roughest of roads with the Boss.

As the senior float pilot now at our operation, I feel it's my duty to bring to my bosses attention that overtime is not optional, it's the law, and benefits show appreciation and help to retain good people and raise morale. However, with a wife, kid, and mortgage, I have to decide whether this is a fight I can truly afford to pick right now.

So first and foremost, I'm curious to hear how common this is across the seasonal 703 board?

[DHCdriver]

As the senior float pilot now at our operation, I feel it's my duty to bring to my bosses attention that overtime is not optional, it's the law, and benefits show appreciation and help to retain good people and raise morale. However, with a wife, kid, and mortgage, I have to decide whether this is a fight I can truly afford to pick right now.

How true you are. And yes you might want to seek out a new job before bringing that topic up at the next meeting. I for one back you 100% on this one and firmly believe that if enough people write a letter to your labor minister and explain whats going on, something could change! But if we don't stand up for ourselves we will be bitching about this for years to come. I personally left the float world 13 years ago because of this BS and got into the 705 world and never looked back. DHC

[phillyfan]

Taking a stand is noble, but be prepared to be phased out. I would bet that not one of those pilots behind you will give two shits after you lose you job standing up for what is right. After your gone the phone calls of solidarity will gradually grow fewer and furthur between. Until eventually it's just you watching Maury track down the real Daddy and TeeVee's plight as the Chief on reruns of North of 60.

Look after yourself and your family. If you are valuable then ask for benifits and pay for yourself. Remember, that everyone can be replaced and that aviation is a thankless bitch. You won't be the first, or the last person who thought they could change it.
Look after your family!

[DEL]

I believe the that overtime issue is one of those little dirty secrets of flying in the bush. I worked for two operations over the years and took one to the labour board for overtime. I was able to get the money owed to me. The only reason was that the company didn't treat the workers good, so two of use took them to the board. Do I believe they every paid overtime to any future employees, I won't bet on it! I know with the second company he was told that he had to pay overtime but we never saw it. The second company was a bit better in looking after us.

I believe that the only way for overtime and any other benefits to be paid is for many of us to contact the labour board. Will it happen in mass, I don't think so but if enough of us do complain, things might change.

[185_guy]

4 operators over 7 years and none of the above. However a few did take good care of its employees in other ways.

My wife works as a Kinesiologist at a private physio clinic and the employees there must fight for overtime pay among other things, it is almost as bad as aviation!!!

[beaverbob]

Yes - Over 40 duty hours per week on a 4 day 3 day off schedule plus blue cross.
Bob

[180]

13 voters so far, and only one receiving overtime and benefits.

I can't say I'm surprised.

But what really disgusts me is comments and advise like this from senior guys in pilot / management positions:

Taking a stand is noble, but be prepared to be phased out. I would bet that not one of those pilots behind you will give two shits after you lose you job standing up for what is right.

Look after yourself and your family. If you are valuable then ask for benifits and pay for yourself. Remember, that everyone can be replaced and that aviation is a thankless bitch. You won't be the first, or the last person who thought they could change it.
Look after your family!

Seriously Philly?

Advising me to bargain for my own experienced ass while leaving my lower time, less experienced co-workers out in the cold is exactly the reason why in 2011, 90% of seasonal pilots are still getting the shaft.

The root of the problem is that too many senior guys like yourself finally find themselves in a cozy position after a decade of hard work and feel like, well, I had to deal with it, (shitty conditions, poor wages, piss poor housing, abuse from Ma and Pa operators, crappy machinery, ridiculous maintenance standards, non-existent duty hours/days) so every other poor sucker behind me should have to suffer through it too. How freaking archaic a thought process is that?

If the experienced guys don't stand up for the inexperienced guys, the BS will NEVER end!

And by the way, after 5 summers with most of them, my co-workers ARE family, and guaranteed they will be standing behind me.

I was on the fence about picking this battle Philly, but your spineless ass has given me the motivation to go ahead with it. So thank-you for the accidental inspiration.

[Indanao]

Seriously Philly?

Yes, seriously. First you ask for advice, then come back and try to spit in the face of the man offering it. Philly is right. Learn the hard way - or if your hell bent on being a martyr go on your own. It's supply & demand, and ability to keep the company afloat that sets the market for guys like you. It's always good to learn from the mistakes of other - because you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

[180]

You realize we're talking about overtime (a federally regulated prerogative) and benefits (a privilege) right?

First you ask for advice, then come back and try to spit in the face of the man offering it.

Actually, I never asked for advice; re-read my original post.

Perhaps my passion for the subject did come across as spitting on Philly's opinion, but spitting in his face was not my intention. I just vehemently disagree with his comments (especially because I know he's a senior pilot and a manager at his company) and stated truthfully that if experienced/senior guys didn't stick up for the less experienced/low time guys in our industry, then who would?

Learn the hard way - or if your hell bent on being a martyr go on your own. It's supply & demand, and ability to keep the company afloat that sets the market for guys like you. It's always good to learn from the mistakes of other - because you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

What are you going on about? Setting the market for guys like me? What does that even mean? The martyrdom analogy I do get.

And how does supply & demand and learning from the mistakes of others fit into paying one's employees legally?

Sounds like you, Indanao, are a manager (and possibly an owner) who hasn't dealt with these issues at your own company.

If your company DID pay overtime and provide benefits, I can't imagine you getting so riled up at the thought of it all?

[Indanao]

Yup, your mind is made up. Good luck. ( Manager. No, but I worked those jobs in five provinces - and doubt they have changed. I have dealt with those issues plenty.)

[1&2SpooledUp]

phillyfan is right. Yes it would be nice if we all got paid overtime and benefits, but we don't. Until that changes you have to be prepared to be replaced.(senior guy's and managers can easily be replaced for standing up for their employee's). I've see it happen. There are a ton of guys waiting to take your spot for less pay. That's the reality of the industry we call aviation. If you don't like the company your working for seek out one that pays overtime and benefits. Good luck with that by the way. Look after your family!

[Diver Driver]

When I was chief pilot I was approached by one of the pilots who worked for the 702 I was with about the pay structure at the company we worked for. I told him we could do something about it and still be fair to all involved. Well needless to say it got pretty heated around there and guess who the first pilot was to put a knife in my back? We went from 6 pilots to 2 pilots that season, you get to know who your friends are in the process. Some talked about going to the labour board and suing the company but nobody took that step.

I am doing my part time flying with an other organization now who actually does appreciate their pilots and the old one has a new chief pilot (guess who? )

You could become a martyr as was mentioned above or you could make the difference that is needed or both. The pilots at my old company are now making more then before, but then I guess that is what a martyr really is anyway.

Good Luck and make sure you know who has your back.

DD

[coreydotcom]

What is the "law" for overtime (duly noted - I am not consulting lawyers)?

I work in the "business" world. I am paid per year - i.e. on the 15th and last day of every month I get the exact same pay, regardless of hours worked or whether or not I was on vacation.

Sometimes we work overtime, sometimes we don't. I still get paid the same regardless of whether I work 35h or 50h. If I look at the last 8 weeks of work I've done: 40, 40, 46.8, 44, 47, 40, 42, 48.

Some people at work bitch because we don't get paid overtime. However, we knew this going in. If you're not happy - leave! In my employment contract is says I am making X dollars, not a penny more. And you know there will be overtime and you will not be paid for it. If you don't like that, find a job that pays per hour.

I think in my case it's more bearable to work overtime "without getting paid" because we make significantly more than $20k a year. I have a friend in investment banking. She's making $120k a year in her 3rd year. She works 12-14 hours per day, 5-6 days a week, every week... she doesn't get paid overtime.

Basically - Is my employer acting illegally by not paying me my overtime? I accepted these conditions and I am fine with them - I may work more than the average person, but I make more than the average person, I have an employment contract, great benefits and scheduled promotions (assuming I achieve the goals set by the company).

If I had some bush operation and made my pilots sign an employment contract stating: You will get 10k dollars for this season (the amount is not the point). You will be available to fly X hours per day (I know there are duty time / period laws, etc, but forget that for a sec), X days per week, and may be required to do other non-flying duties outside of those times. You will not get any benefits. You will not get overtime pay.
---> is this contract illegal? And if you were fine with it at the moment of signing, why are you bitching now, when you're not getting paid, as stated in the contract?

Sounds like a case of knowing what you're getting into but complaining after the fact. Bad on you for accepting in the first place, if it sucked. If it's illegal, well I guess it's another story.

[phillyfan]

So 180. You took it in the ass for 15 years and now your man enough, to take on the man. Good Luck with that. Now that you have a family and responsibilities, you have suddenly been propelled into motion. Where were you over the last decade and a half while countless guys were being screwed?

While you were hiding in the corner with your tail between your legs for 15 years did any world changers go to bat for you?

[180]

Haahahahahaahaaahhhaahahahahahaahahaaha!!!!!

I'll come back to you next post Philly.

First I want to reply to Coreydotcom...

Basically - Is my employer acting illegally by not paying me my overtime? I accepted these conditions and I am fine with them - I may work more than the average person, but I make more than the average person, I have an employment contract, great benefits and scheduled promotions (assuming I achieve the goals set by the company).

The answer to your question is no, and the reason is the formal employment contract you signed. An employment contract is the only way around not paying overtime to a pilot in Canada who works more than 160 hours a month. And regardless of whether you are paid hourly or by salary, overtime is due after 160 hours a month unless you sign a contract saying otherwise.

Sounds like you work for a very professional organization C.com, and I would guess that the pros outweigh the cons in your situation, such as being paid in a timely manner every 2 weeks, getting paid a decent set wage regardless of working 35 or 45 hours, receiving great benefits, scheduled promotions, most likely flying tip-top machinery, most likely one or two great parties a year, etc, etc, etc.

Sounds like you work for one of the good ones...

Now I gotta' go fight with Philly

[Cadismack]

With regards to the Overtime question, the entire Aviation Industry is governed by the employment standards and labour code of Canada. In this legislation it is dicted that an employee who works over 8 hours a day or 40 hours per week be compensated for their time at 1.5 times of regular pay.

There is however an avergaging provision. This provision allows employers to average these hours (2080 a year) over a period of time if:
there must be operational necessity (i.e., the nature of the work must necessitate an irregular distribution of the hours of work of an employee); and
there must be an absence of regularly scheduled hours or regularly scheduled hours must differ from time to time.

I agree that work in excess of 8/40 be paid overtime, but unfortunately, as seasonal employers there is the loop hole to average your hours worked in a season over a period of a year. If you can prove that you have indeed worked more than 2080 hrs in a period of a year with an employer you are entitled to overtime by law, otherwise, working for a seasonal operator, you will have a difficult time collecting.

Something also to remember with Overtime Averaging is that if your employer is eligable to apply overtime averaging and you leave on your own, the company does not owe you any overtime.

However, if you are terminated or laid off by the employer, the employee is entitled to overtime pay for all hours worked in excess of 40 times the number of weeks in the completed part of the averaging period. I do not believe this counts for seasonal layoffs as you are laid off with the intention of returning the next year (leave of Absence), but someone may want to look into that further.

Now I've been fortunate enough to work for an operator who paid me overtime while on the ramp (as well as benefits) but paid a rate plus mileage for flying. I think during my season with them I had one, maybe 2 14 hr duty days while flying, but the mileage rate earned those days was way higher than may ramp OT rate, even if you calculated all 14 hrs as ot.

I believe the rational for pilots is that there are limitations (ok, well regulations, maybe not common practise) on flight and duty times that suggest that its very unlikely that you work more than 2080 hours a year. Best word of advice is that you should keep track of your duty time and if you work more than 2080 hours a year then there may be a case to legally pursue overtime.

[180]

So 180. You took it in the ass for 15 years and now your man enough, to take on the man. Good Luck with that.

Actually, I only took it in the ass for about 5 of those years, because as a low/no time float pilot, what other choice do you have until you're up and over that 1000 hours of PIC on floats, 500 in a DHC hurdle. And I can assure you, lube was conspicuously absent. OUCH!

I've been taking on the man ever since!

While you were hiding in the corner with your tail between your legs for 15 years did any world changers go to bat for you?

I have some amazing mentors in the aviation world, yes.

Have any world changers gone to bat for me? No.

So does that mean I shouldn't go to bat for anyone else because no-one went to bat for me?

Do 2 wrongs make a right? Do 2,000 wrongs make a right? (And I was starting to feel bad about calling you spineless.)

And just to clear the air, I don't even have a tail.

Now that you have a family and responsibilities, you have suddenly been propelled into motion. Where were you over the last decade and a half while countless guys were being screwed?

I'm perpetually propelled into motion Philly. I cannot sit back and accept mediocrity. Never have, never will.

Remember when we butt heads about float plane wages way back when? Well guess what, while you defended the poor operators saying they couldn't afford to pay us a fair wage so we should all just shut up, thank God we had a flying job at all, and be happy with KD, I rallied an entirely new pay structure for not only myself, (gasp), but for the entire company, and our wages have increased over 25% across the board in the last 5 years.

Had I listened to your advice back then Philly, I'd still be paying off my student loans, renting a place to live, and eating KD.

That's nowhere near all I've done for the guys coming up behind me in the last couple of companies I've been involved with, but it's an example of "Where I've been".

How about you? What have you done to improve the industry in the last decade?

Seems to me like someone's been slurping the kool-aid and buying into archaic thought processes like "I never got paid overtime or received benefits when I was a junior guy, so why the hell should any other junior guy get overtime and benefits? Nobody ever went to bat for me, so why should I go to bat for anyone else?"

Almost 20 voters, and a whopping 90% aren't getting paid overtime or receiving benefits! Pathetic.

[Indanao]

Either that or a hint ?

[180]

You lost me.

[Indanao]

You get the point.

[180]

Actually no, I don't.

Maybe you shouldn't be mixing pharmaceuticals and Whiskey Indanao.

[phillyfan]

How did the meeting go? Everybody gettin benefits yet? or are you still waiting for anonymous Avcanada posts giving you the courage to knock on the door?

[Indanao]

Actually no, I don't.

Maybe you shouldn't be mixing pharmaceuticals and Whiskey Indanao.

Hey yeah...gonna try that !

[180]

God forbid anyone should do anything to improve the industry, hey Philly and Andanao.

Anonymity, when used constructively, is one of the beauty's of this site. It let's us get to the bottom of questions like the poll on this thread. Do you think if everybody had their name and company posted under their avatar that there would be 21 votes on this forum right now, with 91% of the voters saying that yes, this is a problem in their company too?

The answer is no.

And that is exactly why I started this thread, to find out how prevalent this issue was across the 703 board.

I did it for information, not courage.

Do they sell mirrors where you live Philly?

[DHCdriver]

Phillyfan and Indanao, you two dicks just made my ignore list, your both pathetic. And we wonder why this industry is the way it is. DHC