FTU wants commitment

[iSight]

Is it normal for an FTU to required a "letter of commitment" agreeing to work for 'x' number of years for a new instructor? I've heard of training bonds but how can one justify committing to x years if the potential employer didn't invest anything into the new employee?
Your thoughts?

Thanks

[cgzro]

You had better have some escape clauses.

Id suggest something to the effect that all aspects of the flying and maintenance are in full compliance with the cars

Looks innocuous enough but mighty powerful. Same one insurance companies write into most policies!

Peter

[iSight]

Ah! A non committal letter of commitment. That's genius! I'm so going to do that.

[rigpiggy]

Are they paying for your rating?

[iSight]

no. They have as much invested in me as the next FTU. I'm the one who invested in me.

[Les Habitants]

Garbage man! Don't do it! (particularly if they didn't put ANY money into you)

Unless you can get that clause Pete suggested...that would virtually render the contract void

[Slappy the Squirrel]

FTU's have some very bizarre strategies sometimes, but this one boggles the mind! I've never before heard of this in a situation such as yours, where they have not invested anything in you.

What does the agreement say? If you don't stay for say 2 years, does the contract state you have to pay them money? Or does it just say you have to stay for a couple years with no specified punishment.

I would tread carefully, I doubt a flight school looking for an agreement like that would be a nice place to work, because then they can push you around and you can't say boo about it...

[Sulako]

Sounds like economic slavery. Don't do it.

[Needtofly]

Let me guess the FTU is Guardian Aerospace?

[SuperchargedRS]

Well will they sign a agreement guaranteeing you x amount of hours per week (and will pay you a base salary based of that figure regardless of hours flown)? and pay of any additional instructor ratings (I.e. Upgrade class , also have them include housing and utilities and moving costs for you. I would go add those items on to the "contract" and see what they say.

[Doc]

Sign EVERYTHING! Commit to the rest of your life as a bonded ($$$ or not) slave, Get used to it. It's aviation in Canada! Roll with the punches. Admit that everything is YOUR fault! Prepare to kiss ass! Buy your next job. Sell your last one.
Could this industry get any more FUBAR? I highly doubt it.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Presumably the school wants a commitment from you because they want instructor stability. While that is not in itself unreasonable, if they want to nail you done for a significant period then I would suggest they should have to pay a significant price to make it worthwhile. The reality of instructing is that it is a stepping stone job to other "better" jobs. The only thing you owe is that when on the job you are the best instructor you can be and that you give 2 weeks notice and have all of the student paperwork PTR's etc up to date with ideally a face to face briefing with your replacement on how all your students are doing. Frankly the only reason I can see to sign such a commitment is if you figure for other life reasons you are unlikely to move and the company puts you on a decent straight salary. Otherwise if you are a asked to sign any document binding you to stay, the only reasonable response is an out right refusal.

A related scam is those operators who put out the "You can upgrade to the Navajo" (PPC at your expense of course ) after a year of instructing. If you are going to pay for it anyway (a sad but now almost universal reality) then I would suggest you tell them you will start instructing the day the PPC is issued.

The flight training industry IMO now has two kinds of Instructors. 250 hour brand new Class 4 's who are having a hard time finding work and experienced Class 3's or 2's who won't leave the big city and are stuck at the school they have worked for since they started.

The other class are experienced class 3's or 2's who are willing and able to work mostly unsupervised at small FTU's and the satellite schools of the bigger FTU's in the more out of the way places. There is IMO a shortage of good instructors in this category and so you should demand a good deal.

[loopa]

Let me guess the FTU is Guardian Aerospace?

No I think this is one of the school's out of CYXD. The poster sounds very familiar.

I have had many talks with the owner/cfi of this school regarding how I feel he is asking for an unrealistic term. I fully agree with iSight - you have fully invested into getting to this point with your licenses (and if you are who I think you are), with your credentials achieved not so long ago you could find a school that won't ask this. When challenged that it is unheard of for somebody to ask for 2 year commitment on a 172 job, the response of the guy behind the desk is "so what?" This individual likes to see the 2 year deal as them investing 1 year into you as a class 4 so that you are gaining wisdom, and when you become marketable on the year mark which is around 1000 hours, they want to see you commit to them for the time spent into supervising you towards a class 3. This is the exact clause I was told I personally don't believe that the effort that goes into the supervision is worth an extra year of commitment. The filling out of the paper work alone is a pain - unless of course they are paying for it - but don't pilot's always find a way to complain? haha. But to each his own I guess eh? I suppose their blurb about their supervision into you versus a year commitment from you is a polite way of saying 'be quiet noob' when you ask them if they are investing into you in any shape or form?

The reality of instructing is that it is a stepping stone job to other "better" jobs. The only thing you owe is that when on the job you are the best instructor you can be and that you give 2 weeks notice and have all of the student paperwork PTR's etc up to date with ideally a face to face briefing with your replacement on how all your students are doing. Frankly the only reason I can see to sign such a commitment is if you figure for other life reasons you are unlikely to move and the company puts you on a decent straight salary. Otherwise if you are a asked to sign any document binding you to stay, the only reasonable response is an out right refusal.

Well said BPF - as always, I agree 100%

iSight - stick with your guns bud! Do your probation period, and if after 3 months they are pressing towards the 2 year deal, then you can make a decision that's right for you. This is all of course if the school that's asking you to commit is the one I think it is, and you are who I think you are lol.

[KK7]

What BPF said.

The fact is most if not all other FTUs do not require this kind of commitment. So this FTU better have something to offer you in exchange for a commitment, something other FTUs don't or can't offer. I think significant money is the best form of giving something to offer, but maybe something else suits you also. But be careful of promisses, and put it in writing as part of the terms of your commitment.

[mathias_now]

I would gladly give that kind of commitment to a school that invested 3-4K to assist me in completing my instructor rating. No such luck with that as of yet....

[iSight]

Thanks for your thoughts.
slappy - There is no money I would owe and no real punishment if I left early. I bet it wouldn't net me a very nice reference though.
This is what bothers me about it, if I sign on for 2 yrs and then move on earlier I'll probably piss them off and burn a bridge. It feels like they're asking me to light this bridge on fire while I'm still on it.
And the potential for advancement doesn't seem to be there either. It'll be two years on a single, I'm almost certain of that!

KK7 - I actually think that this FTU is bringing less to the table that other FTU's do.

BPF - In trying to negotiate I even said that I would even give a month's notice if possible and be open with them about job searches rather than go behind their backs and pull the ol' "hey I've got a new job, I start tomorrow. See Ya!".

loopa - you coming back for delta sonic??

Aviation is fun!!

[oldncold]

fair enough an employer wants committment but you might want to remind your potential employer that even though aviation is federally regulated it must meet the minimum wage requirement. usually for the province in which the ftu operates and especially if that ftu receives accreditation for a private college which many do to get student loans students. the min standards of the ontario colleges etc apply.

That stated I would work out a base plus hrly structure. min wage at 10$ hr x40 =$400 X4.5 weeks a month = 1800 month then add your 25 $ hr insturction time and ground briefing etc. eg; if you fly 30 hrs it is 625 month fly ing pay + 1600 //not great but at least rogers won't turn your cell phone off cause you had to choose between kraft diiner or starve.

many ftu's forget this fact which is inbreach of the labour code/ let alone it usually invalidiates any signed agreeement as the contract is made under duress ( sign or no job)
hr people enjoy these issues and management who havent emerged from the dark ages yet should soon! before a lawsuit costing many times more than 1600 a month drops on your desk.

[loopa]

BPF - In trying to negotiate I even said that I would even give a month's notice if possible and be open with them about job searches rather than go behind their backs and pull the ol' "hey I've got a new job, I start tomorrow. See Ya!".

I'm surprised they didn't agree to that. Furthering your career is not going behind somebody's back. Employers know when their instructors are starting to toss out resumes. And if they play dumbfounded and live up in an oblivious world thinking a 1500 hour instructor is not trying to move on from a $20/hr job, then that equates to an epic fail.

FTU's have hundreds of resume's on file. It won't take too long to sort through them and find a good replacement. Or better yet, use the class 4's coming through the system.

[AllClutch]

If you sign it, it would not be a legal and binding contract anyway as it does not contain any "consideration" for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Considerat ... nglish_law

[loopa]

slappy - There is no money I would owe and no real punishment if I left early. I bet it wouldn't net me a very nice reference though.
This is what bothers me about it, if I sign on for 2 yrs and then move on earlier I'll probably piss them off and burn a bridge. It feels like they're asking me to light this bridge on fire while I'm still on it.
And the potential for advancement doesn't seem to be there either. It'll be two years on a single, I'm almost certain of that!

From my experience, most companies that you would be moving on to from an instructing job are looking to see your attitude at 1500 hours. Are you an instructor with a negative attitude? Do you hate aviation because of the last few years being exposed to it? Are you worth investing into, etc. Ya reference checks are "nice" but remember, if you play nicely with your peers those references often times are more valuable to a chief pilot looking to hire you; especially if these peers are internal. From an HR legality viewpoint, you cannot be given a negative reference, and if the company biased against you because of a negative reference check while all your other peers refer you as a strong candidate, you can create a court case out of this. Of course, how far do you want to push that and create a reputation for yourself right? Just saying. Mind you, if you pushed a court case emphasizing what you are talking about in this thread about a flight school wanting x amount of years in unfair commitment and etc, you might actually get respect for it. I don't know.

Further, if you've already been hired at a new company, then why worry about previous references? Depending on how far you are planning on furthering your career, your instructing reference does not play much into the grand scheme of things; unless of course you decide to use your CFI from a 172 job when applying to Cathay or something. I'd like to think that by such point in your career you have found a few more peers to use as a reference. Employers at the higher levels are very interested in your personality, experience, and risk management assessment. Flying the plane at such levels are accomplished by muscle memory knowing where the Centre CMD button is (sarcasm, but you get my point).

I bet it wouldn't net me a very nice reference though.

Yup, they place this "fear" into your thought process so you stick it out while they take advantage of you for that second year when you could very well be moving on and furthering your career.

And the potential for advancement doesn't seem to be there either. It'll be two years on a single, I'm almost certain of that!

Absolutely! And it's not like it's the red carpet when you are offered to sign another 2 year commitment "in this case a written contract" Do you recall how many hours the multi flew in the last 6 months? I bet if I said less than 80 I would be pretty darn close to accurate. So how is just shy of 300 hours multi time in 2 years worth any kind of commitment?

Don't get me wrong, this operator has a lot of great things, but the stipulation and fear they produce to the new forthcoming instructor who is trying so hard to simply get a class 4 job is in my opinion absurd. They take advantage of your passionate attitude because you are new. Don't let them. Just like how I suggested to one of my former students to be assertive regarding one of their problems at the school, I strongly suggest the same to you. Being assertive in times like this really set's the precedence for the next several months that you will endure a working relationship with this or any other company.

Wish you the best!

[Big Pistons Forever]

Don't get me wrong, this operator has a lot of great things, but the stipulation and fear they produce to the new forthcoming instructor who is trying so hard to simply get a class 4 job is in my opinion absurd. They take advantage of your passionate attitude because you are new. Don't let them. Just like how I suggested to one of my former students to be assertive regarding one of their problems at the school, I strongly suggest the same to you. Being assertive in times like this really set's the precedence for the next several months that you will endure a working relationship with this or any other company.

Good advice. There are two elements at work for the new Class 4.

The first has to do with your on the job performance. As brand new instructor you still have a lot of learning, so frankly I would expect to see not only in the airplane but learning about the rest of the business, like dispatching, maintenance, and the office management. Be curious ask questions, help out when you can. I also expect to see the book work you put into your training continue. As you start to instruct lots of little things will come up that were not dealt with in training. These provide a great opportunity to continue learning and developing as an instructor so get into the books, CAR's, talk to senior instructors etc and make a point of clearing up any questions/uncertainty in your mind. Also you don't learn about flying hitting the bars every night or moving up the "Call of Duty" best shooter ranks, you have to be at the airport. When I was a Class 4, I practically lived at the airport. I was often the only instructor around on those poor weather days so I toured a lot of prospective students who walked in the door and subsequently wanted to fly with that keen young man that first helped them . I also got a lot of interesting opportunities to ride along with experienced pilots, fly the sudden sightseeing trip, maintenance flight etc. All were good experience and allowed me to build flight time faster then anybody else at the school.

The second element is a fair work environment. I put a lot of unpaid time being at the flight school, but I never washed the bosses car, or worked on the flight line because the boss was too cheap to hire a rampie, or did any non aviation office work. I was very unhappy about the substandard pay and was vocal about my concerns. I know my boss wished I would just shut up but he respected my work ethic and keenness which got me listened to.

My boss expected me to move on and got what they were owed, exactly 2 weeks notice when I left.

[loopa]

All were good experience and allowed me to build flight time faster then anybody else at the school.

Exactly what happened to me. I was the newest instructor in, and the fastest to move on. Guys have been there for several years and still hadn't cracked the 1000 hour mark.

Bang on advice BPF.

My boss expected me to move on and got what they were owed, exactly 2 weeks notice when I left.

Exactement

[hawker driver]

You had better have some escape clauses.

Id suggest something to the effect that all aspects of the flying and maintenance are in full compliance with the cars

Looks innocuous enough but mighty powerful. Same one insurance companies write into most policies!

Peter

A pilot I know wanted to get out of a bond but was tied in for another 8 months. Instead of being a lazy employee he became the most conscientious employee. He did a detailed preflight and post flight every leg. An accurate weight and balance also caused lots of cargo and passengers to be left behind. Unfortunately the MX was not able to keep those old aircraft in airworthy condition. Sure it caused lots of cancelled flight and lost revenue, but it was safe and compliant.
The management calculated that it was cheaper to keep him at home earning his full salary then to assign him flights that might have to be cancelled or charterd out. After 6 weeks it was mentioned to him that the company would let him out of his bond so that he could advance in his career. He reluctantly agreed and they parted ways.

So the pilot did not break his bond and management was shown to care about their pilots.
A win-win situation for everyone.