Pilot vs. Doctor Pay

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Bede
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Pilot vs. Doctor Pay

Post by Bede »

I'm laying in bed sick today, so to kill some time, I did some calculations comparing doctor pay to pilot pay.

I compared the figures provided by the Canadian Medical Association to WestJet pilot pay, where I work. WJA pay includes 20% ESP and profit share.
The CMA data is found here: http://www.cma.ca/index.php/ci_id/53559/la_id/1.htm and is corrected for their overhead and malpractise insurance (which averages 37% for a family practitioner and 30% for a specialist according to the CMA)

The average family doc worked 58 hrs/wk and earned $134,000 after overhead (37%) was paid which works out to $48/hr
The average medical specialist worked 63 hrs/wk and earned $190,000 after overhead (30%) which works out to $63/hr.
The average surgeon worked 69 hrs/wk and earned $258,000 after overhead (30%) which works out to $78/hr.

At WJA, a 3rd yr FO works on average 125hrs/mo DUTY time (77.5hr credit) to earn $63/duty hour (includes profit share and ESP). - similar to anaesthetist or cardiologist
5th yr FO $73/hr - similar to general surgeon
3rd yr Capt $110/hr - similar to opthamologist - the highest paid surgeons (who earn $117/hr)
7th yr Capt $126/hr - twice as much as an internal medicine doctor
10th yr Capt $141/hr - twice as much as a surgeon

According to someone, the top Captain who did a bunch of OT (old OT system though) earned $340k a couple years ago. Assuming 1200hrs of flying and 1.6hrs of duty for each credit hour (WJA average) He would have averaged 40hrs/wk of work for an hourly wage of $175.

Hope none of you guys are supporters of the Occupy movement. :D
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Re: Pilot vs. Doctor Pay

Post by +TSRAGR »

I don't dispute the CMA figures but I know for sure that the doctors (GP) in our community are paid $10,000.00 per month base plus $100.00 per hour worked. They also receive a house with all utilities paid and travel allowance.
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Re: Pilot vs. Doctor Pay

Post by akoch »

The problem here is not even the doctor's pay (it is the least of my worries), but that the medical system is fundamentally broken and not really serving the society. Yes, it is a great business and provides employment to many, but this is where it pretty much stops. It does not server the rest of the society. Entirely off-topic though. Happened to loose a couple of friends lately, watching them trying to fight the system was awful.
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Re: Pilot vs. Doctor Pay

Post by C-MNOP »

This is from another forum but i like how he sums it up......


As an airline pilot, I would spend many hours a week working for the airline I was employed by. I really enjoyed the job, the pilots and other airline personnel I worked with, so in many days this helped a 14 hour duty day fly by.

The average airline pilot works four days a week and is gone from home that entire time. When a pilot gets more seniority, they can hold three day trips that keeps him away from home the entire time. At many airlines, the ability to hold a three day schedule takes many years, so plan on at least four day trips if you are planning on an airline pilot career.

Most people will think four day work weeks is not bad. But what you have to look at is how many hours a pilot is actually working for his airline during that time. Many of my trips would duty in around 7:00am and I would duty out on the 4th day around 3:00pm. That is an 80 hour work week. I consider it an 80 hour work week, even my time asleep because I am on the road, as an airline pilot for my employer and I am not at home or free to do what I want. Even though a pilot does not have a job to complete in the hotel, the pilot also does not have a car or any other method to do what he wants. At home I can do whatever I want.

Even if you subtract the 24 hours a pilot is asleep during a four day trip, it is still a 56 hour work week. The job I work at now is not a flying job and I go into an office to complete my job. I work approximately 40 hours a week and the rest of the time I am at home, free to do what I want.

Every pilot needs to figure out what is best for them, I just what to inform new pilots who are considering an airline pilot career what the facts are about the number of hours worked. As a pilot you are technically working on average 80 hours a week. In most other professions, a professional is working 40 hours a week. I hear this all the time, there are many jobs that have a professional work more than 40 hours. Yes, that is right and there are many pilots that work more than the 80 hours a week that I referred to.

A five year airline first officer at Continental Airlines on the B737 is making about $85.00 an hour. The minimum guarantee is 72 hours. If a pilot works the guarantee of 72 hours, that is a gross monthly pilot pay of $6120.00. Divide that pilot pay by 320 hours worked (away from home even when not flying in a hotel room) for the month and the hourly rate is $19.12 an hour.

It is all in how a pilot wants to look at it. There are some good points to working only 40 hours a week and having the rest of the week to myself.

Airlinepilotfacts is all about informing pilots, so they can make educated decisions about their airline pilot career. Do you live to work or work to live.
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Re: Pilot vs. Doctor Pay

Post by Hornblower »

How many years did you work 12 hours a day for $1500 a month or about $5 an hour????? (usually about 30% below minimum wage)
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Re: Pilot vs. Doctor Pay

Post by tsgas »

When was the last time that you saw a Dr. get laid off?
All docters make a decent living. What % of the pilots in Canada will end up employed with the majors ?
When will another airline go bankrupt in Canada ?

There are more things to consider than just the pay.
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Re: Pilot vs. Doctor Pay

Post by mcrit »

:roll:

Doctors pay their dues to get where they want to be. Pilots pay their dues to get where they want to be. If the doctor errors he can kill a bunch of people in a quiet fashion. If the pilot errors he can kill a bunch of people in a spectacular fashion. Pretty much sums it up.
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Re: Pilot vs. Doctor Pay

Post by ikraze »

cool really interesting information!
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Les Habitants
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Re: Pilot vs. Doctor Pay

Post by Les Habitants »

mcrit wrote::roll:

Doctors pay their dues to get where they want to be. Pilots pay their dues to get where they want to be. If the doctor errors he can kill a bunch of people in a quiet fashion. If the pilot errors he can kill a bunch of people in a spectacular fashion. Pretty much sums it up.
THIS. With a little humor added to finish. Nicely put. And nice sig. lol

Whatever nutcase doesn't think that going to school for TEN YEARS (while paying between 5-30 K a year, may I remind you) isn't called paying their dues....I thought a year to find a job, and a year to work the ramp and a year making low FO wage as bad....I can't imagine doing flight training/working the ramp for TEN years.
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Re: Pilot vs. Doctor Pay

Post by BTyyj »

Interesting read. I have done similar calculation as well, as I am interested in both professions.

Just to add a bit to the thread: as Bede works for an Alberta based company, shouldn't salaries be compared to Alberta doctors, as they are the highest paid in Canada? Going off the CIHI 2006 document (http://secure.cihi.ca/cihiweb/products/APP_2003_e.pdf), the average Fee-For-Service Surgical Specialist in Alberta would earn $430 000. Taking into account the 30% overhead, this number would translate into about $300 000. This document is from 2006 as well, so I would assume the salaries have risen a bit since then.

What doesn't seem to taken into account, however, is the benefits of being a physician. The job is extremely stable. depending on what you do you could get amazing hours, you will be making a competitieve salary, and you get to sleep in your own bed every night. There is also the underlying benefits such as the prestige of working in a widely respected profession. Most pilots wouldn't have these aforementioned benefits .

As noted by a previous poster, the difference between a doctor and a pilot, is that the former is paid by the hour, while the latter is paid by the credit hour. For example, Surgeons are paid for when they are at the hospital, not for being in the operating room. Conversely, pilots are only paid for when they are in the air, not for when they are away from home for work. The way the numbers work, it can be very deceiving, but at the end of the year the average physician will bring home more than a pilot.

Being a part-time swim instructor, it is a very similar situation; some pools pay you less but pay for the preparation time, while others don't pay for the prep time but pay you more for the actual instructing time. In the end, you'll be making about the same either way.

Something else that hasn't been taken into account, in terms of background and requirements, is the sheer difficulty of becoming a doctor. Getting into Medical School is pretty insane nowadays. For anybody interested, this has been a very helpful website for me: http://www.premed101.com/forums/. You can see who has gotten into where, their GPAs, MCAT, ECs, etc. That being said, you could potentially get into Medical School with 4 years undergrad, spend 4 years in medical schools, then 2 years as a resident and you'll be a licensed GP. Some people can get in with less undergrad, but that's besides the point. It takes at least 8-10 years total to become a physician, with 4-6 being formal and 4 being in the job (as the final 2 years of medical school is done as an intern, not in class).

To put it into perspective however, as an aspiring pilot, by goal is to eventually get to a major airline. I know that at a recent AC hiring, the average age of the recently employed pilots was 36. To compare that to medicine, that's about age that a Neurosurgeon can become an attending physician. The work required to become a pilot is arguable just as hard in my mind. Many pilots first get undergraduate degrees or diplomas nowadays, then head up north or wherever to pay their dues. Doctors instead go to medical school to pay their dues. Which do you think is harder: freezing your @ss off up north stuffing bags for minimum wage, or sitting in a nice warm classroom while being extremely intellectually challenged? Honestly, I think its up to the individual.

Edit: Decided to rephrase the second last sentence where I said "extremely intellectually challenged" to "being in an extremely challenging academic environment", although I left the original in there because I thought it was pretty funny after re-reading it :)
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Re: Pilot vs. Doctor Pay

Post by old_man »

People are payed for their value. Not for how hard they worked to get there, how shitty school was for them, how much they spent on tuition, how many years they spend chucking baggage, how cold it was where they worked 10 years ago, how many lives are in trusted to them, for their responsibilities,...etc. They are payed for their value. Basically, 'what is the minimum I have to pay you to keep you here and is it worth it for what you will do for me'.
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Re: Pilot vs. Doctor Pay

Post by Cat Driver »

The work required to become a pilot is arguable just as hard in my mind. Many pilots first get undergraduate degrees or diplomas nowadays, then head up north or wherever to pay their dues. Doctors instead go to medical school to pay their dues. Which do you think is harder: freezing your @ss off up north stuffing bags for minimum wage, or sitting in a nice warm classroom while being extremely intellectually challenged? Honestly, I think its up to the individual.
Looking back on my career I did not find it all that difficult to become a working pilot compared to what I would have to have done to become a doctor.

For one thing it did not require much in the way of formal education to become a pilot as I did not go past grade eight, also there was never a time when I had to work the ramp or any other job to fly for pay.

I realize that the industry has changed and working as a ground slave has become the norm for most young pilots trying to get a start in aviation.

However the reason pilots get bent over and used as slaves is because they allow it, not because the job requires it.

Comparing pilots to doctors is rather a stretch when you really look at the reality of the subject.
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Re: Pilot vs. Doctor Pay

Post by BTyyj »

Fair enough.

I personally have been looking hard at both professions. I definitely can agree and appreciate that becoming a doctor is extremely difficult, but a lot of it is done in a supportive and arguably comfortable environment, unlike what many pilots have to go through nowadays (Ice Pilots). I think it's definitely a matter of perspective. I know a bunch of doctors who I could never see throwing bags, so I think it's a to-each-their-own type situation.

Maybe your right. But the difference in pay definitely makes up for it.
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Last edited by BTyyj on Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pilot vs. Doctor Pay

Post by grimey »

Les Habitants wrote: Whatever nutcase doesn't think that going to school for TEN YEARS (while paying between 5-30 K a year, may I remind you) isn't called paying their dues....I thought a year to find a job, and a year to work the ramp and a year making low FO wage as bad....I can't imagine doing flight training/working the ramp for TEN years.
Add to that nightmarish hours while doing internships and residencies... Medicine is a route to a sweet paycheck, but it's not an easy one.
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Re: Pilot vs. Doctor Pay

Post by Jack Klumpus »

Cat Driver wrote: I did not go past grade eight.
Shocking! from your posts, I pegged you as a haaavad grad.

Cat Driver wrote: I realize that the industry has changed and working as a ground slave has become the norm for most young pilots trying to get a start in aviation..


Oh right, we ruined it. More like pilots from your generation is what got us here.

ACs 60 yr old buffoons that wanna fly more? That's our generation right? ...Still screwing us!

From another post...

Cat Driver wrote:tired of pilots who feel they are pilots and anything except actually flying is below their status in life........

What is it? Pilots should just fly, or should be slaves as well?
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Post by Beefitarian »

Excellent work Jack. I think Cat will tell you he has felt I'm mean to him so Don't think I'm his big brother or knight in shining armor.
Jack Klumpus wrote:
Cat Driver wrote:tired of pilots who feel they are pilots and anything except actually flying is below their status in life........

What is it? Pilots should just fly, or should be slaves as well?
I suspect the problem is not that they need a guy to roll fuel drums onto the islander or load hundred pound bags of rice.

They probably do need a guy that can check the oil and fuel levels also being able to note that it appears to be the right substance and not contaminated with moisture. The pilot probably also needs to know how to draw lines on a VNC and navigate without the glass screen they have been using in flight school. The need a guy that can pick up the chocolate bar wrappers, mostly empty chip bags and half eaten sandwich then remove it from the plane before it prevents the rudder pedals from full motion.

I suspect you're possibly the kind of guy they need but have been getting the kind of guy that needs to phone his mom because he is out of clean socks.

Hope I have not been a bother, you can get back to telling Cat he's an old crab ass. Cheerio!!
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Re: Pilot vs. Doctor Pay

Post by LegoMan »

Yea it's no doubt the 10 year captain at Westjet brings in a nice coin but you have to factor in years to get there. Most likely spend 8-10 years to get into Westjet and then an additional 6-8 to get left seat so the $175/hr is pretty much close to the end of his career. Assuming he started right after university (22), he would be around 48-50 years old by the time he'd be at that payscale.

Meanwhile I know a 33 year old Radiologist who rakes in $258,000/yr. And a 38 year old dentist that owns two offices and makes more than $2 million a year. Neither of these gentlemen ever have to worry about job security.

Nobody ever disputed the pay for some pilots can be very good, only the jobs that pay that amount are few and generally reserved for veterans in the field. I read a report about who the top 1% earners were and sadly on 0.2% of them are pilots. The largest group still remains to managers & executives.
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Re: Pilot vs. Doctor Pay

Post by LegoMan »

How many pilots own a home over $700,000 and drive a porsche? I don't know a single physician that doesn't. :lol:
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Re: Pilot vs. Doctor Pay

Post by Cat Driver »

Oh right, we ruined it. More like pilots from your generation is what got us here.
You maybe should take a course in reading comprehension jack klumpus, if you read what I wrote you will find my generation were not required to put in months or years of ramping to get a flying job, that is your generation that has accepted that form of job entrance.

As to education I mentioned mine only to point out that grade eight is sufficient education to be able to make it in aviation as a pilot.

And in my case I made it quite well and held some of the best jobs in aviation.
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Re: Pilot vs. Doctor Pay

Post by Bede »

Interesting responses. A couple things to note:
1) Doctors usually get fee-for-service. Just as pilots get paid by the credit hours, doctors have to do things they don't get paid for. I compared duty hours for pilots to hours doctors declared that they worked, not billed. True some doctors make more (AB) and some less (QC).
2) Using Time Away From Base as a measure of how much we work is ridiculous and difficult to justify with a straight face.
3) I would not say that finding work is easier for a doctor. A GP definitely, but many surgical specialities, no. CVT, orthopeadics, neuro, etc all have a glut of residents and many residents get stuck doing multiple fellowships waiting for a positions to open- all while paying off 250k in debt. Checkout that forum mentioned above by jack737 www.premed101.com/forums

In summary, we all pay our dues, pilots with crap wages and hard work for 10 years. Doctors pay their dues with a huge amount of work and a lot of debt that needs to be paid off. I would argue that doctors only make more money by virtue of the fact that they work more hours.
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Re: Pilot vs. Doctor Pay

Post by MeAndMrPenguin »

I believe that I can easily answer this debate. I am a pilot with a major carrier and my wife is a doctor. I do her billing, and I open my own T4's.

If you are having a hard time choosing between the two, it is doctor, hands down.

Pro:

Make the bigs bucks, day 1 to day ?. Fee for service.
College of Physicians has done a fantastic job keeping a level of physicians that always ensures work.
Work when you want, where you want, and earn as much as you want and take off any time you need, whenever you need.
Recession proof, tax payer funded, endless supply of dumb people and excess table saws.
Not subject to fluctuating oil prices.


Cons:

If you are a good physician, then you will have sleepless nights, as medicine is a tough job.

At first glance, the jobs seam similar. They are both risk management. All in all though, Physicians face more frequent stressful situations and will have bigger impact on public health and safety than pilots. Sadly for us, we are usually gone with the passenger(s), something they don't often face.
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Re: Pilot vs. Doctor Pay

Post by Bede »

Mr. Penguin,

Thanks for weighing in. What does your wife specialize in? How does her hourly wage compare to yours? What do you fly?

I know many of the specialists don't have that sort of freedom that you describe. If you don't work as hard as the other members of your group they take your hospital privileges away and, ta da, you're not working.
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Post by Beefitarian »

Doctors don't need to go to a pilot to obtain a Cat 1 to keep their job.
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Re: Pilot vs. Doctor Pay

Post by godsrcrazy »

Really we are now comparing pilots to doctors. If you want paid $700,000.00 and drive a porsche so bad then go be a doctor. It takes all kinds to make this world go around. I suggest some on here take their heads out of the clouds and turn on your TV and watch things like Dirty Jobs. How much do you think some of these people make per year cleaning up crap etc after all us PILOTS. I bet the majority are likely to make less then $50,000.0 a year. Ya they could have went to flight school and spent 6 months and $40,000.00 and they didn't. Some of you should slip over to the Vertical forum. These guys spend double what we do getting a licence so they can go live in a tent, and crap in a pail and you don't see them complaining about how much they make like people on here do. I spoke with a few Helicopter pilots over the years. They make any were from $30,000.00 in 6 months season to $110,000.00 over 1 year. To make $110,000.00 you get to spend minimum of 9 months away from home in some camp in the middle of nowhere. And yes they do their tie on the ramp.
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Re: Pilot vs. Doctor Pay

Post by N2 »

I still can't figure out for the life on my why people insist on comparing pilots to doctors.....sort of like comparing a banana to a rock.
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