Medevac ops/duty times

[BEFAN5]

I have been hearing some rumblings about Transport cracking down on air operators for duty day violations who operate medevacs.

How they have been working is when a crew gets a call, their day starts at 9am. So their day should technically be done by 23:00. But what medevac outfits have been doing, is giving crews a duty, and a re-fresh time. So if they do a medevac and get back to base at 12noon, their rest period starts so they get a fresh time of 1800. But if a call comes in at lets say 1500, they are saying the crew are still working their original day that lets them work until 23:00. I guess transport isnt fond of this system as I have heard some operators having to adjust their ops and have a set in stone finish time. No "refresh" time.

Anyone here work for an outfit that works like this or who works for a company Transport has cracked down on?

[mbav8r]

I hope they crack down on this practice, I can remember numerous occasions where I would get a call for a short trip, say 4 hrs from call till back at base. So now I get back at noon and the dispatcher says so you're good till 10pm if another call comes in and you're fresh at 930pm if a call doesn't come in. So I slept all night and worked 4 hrs, now I'm supposed to go to sleep for 8 hrs. Never happened, what would happen is I'd watch the clock all day and hope for another call to come in before I was "refreshed". What also would happen is a call for another trip would come but you couldn't do it with the day you had left, so they would either call another crew to do it, and you'd still be fresh at 930pm or they would see if the station would wait until you were fresh and guess what, the phone would ring at 930 on the dot, now you're good for 14 more hours on the same 8 hrs sleep from the 1st trip. For some reason that practice went on for years and I bet still does.
For one company, I had 12 hr shifts and the worst case senario you could get your first call at the 11th hour and have to go, but as soon as you were back the next shift took over, except for the rare occassion where you could get re-routed on your way back to base and end up doing a second trip.
Either way it's needs to be cracked down on and made fair for all companies, because the ones doing it safer need more crews and have a cost disadvantage.

[BEFAN5]

Yea. It is a terrible practice... I have read the CAR's over and over again and do not see any loophole to create such a horrible system. I hear Transport has told two medevac outfits in Ontario, and Manitoba they need to do the solid 14, then 8 off. None of this shit where crews don't know if they should be sitting up or sleeping.

[oldncold]

1)100 hours a month max on call ie medvac
2) not more than 3hrs shifting of the callout in 7 days ie start at 7pm work 10hrs to 5am then sleep till 3 pm call out at 10 pm the nxt 2 days this may have been in a previous version of the cars
3) no split duty days unless crews given advance notice ie 24 hrs
4/ must be in a suitable rest area etc

5) the crews are responsible for notifying operations mgt that will exceed all applicapable cars re;crew

6)pic has ultimate responsiblity for safety of the pax and crew and aircraft ! if ya don't speak up and you pooch it on a dark night in upper scrotum canada. then tc finds that the duty days are violated in intent if not law, remember insurance the lawyer will try to prove knowingly violated the intent of the law . then if someone dies there family will come after you or your estate. either way mucho cash to defend from what I have seen on this site in just a few negligence cases.

7) from an hr point of view the increased training costs of turnover due to fatigue burnout /andbeing fed up with mgt is not cheap and good mgt will realize this /unfortuneately bad mgt cant see beyond the crisis in front of their nose and wonder why this is always happen'g >answer BAD MGT

[Liquid Charlie]

You can quote rules a regs but at the end of the day the buck stops with you - if you feel you are too fatigued to fly you are obligated to get rested -- it's all about common sense and safety -- for me -- getting into the biz again after being away from it for 30 years I will certain put the old attitude that medical flights trump everything well behind me -- thinking of several examples to back that up -----

[SgtStroka]

You cant be covering and resetting at the same time, people need to be clear with their dispatch/company that they WILL NOT do both. Although I have never done medevac, I have seen the frowned faces at dispatch and higher ups when a Pilot puts his foot down and says he will do one or the other and not both.

Doesn't seem right, is this what they will expect out of me when my turn comes up to do medevac, Probably. What if I have a Captain who likes to play ball with the company and tells me were doing both when I stand up and say, "No, were covering or resetting, not both" I might just say find another pilot, or get a new crew.

Anyone agree? Have a similar instances?

[Go Juice]

Doesn't seem right, is this what they will expect out of me when my turn comes up to do medevac, Probably. What if I have a Captain who likes to play ball with the company and tells me were doing both when I stand up and say, "No, were covering or resetting, not both" I might just say find another pilot, or get a new crew.

Anyone agree? Have a similar instances?

I'm with you on this one brother... But this is Canada and your best friend will probably help you move and then take your job after you got fired......

[BEFAN5]

[RudderWhat]

I agree, this practice needs to stop.
However, can anyone post a reference to a CAR which specifically prohibits it?

[BEFAN5]

Maybe this.....
700.19 (1)
(3) An air operator shall notify a flight crew member on call of the commencement and duration of the flight crew member's time free from duty.

[Sulako]

Heh I had this issue back when I flew medevacs in northern Ontario. I called TC and they said that 700.19 (1) (3) meant that the operator shall let you know when your days off are, not when you are on rest vs still on duty. I'm glad to see that this is changing - it wasn't very restful waiting all afternoon for a second call-out and then resetting and having to fly all night.

[126.75]

My question is would TC actually care? Will they look into it? It's one thing to say look at this rule let's take it seriously and then note do any enforcement. Let us hope that TC gets back into the enforcement game. They should meet planes on the ramp and ask them to show a log sheet (similar to truck drivers) to show; when their duty rest ended, their day starts, the flying they have done and when their work day ends/duty rest starts. Maybe I am too much of an optimist!

[ywg9]

ah the good old recovering questions. resting and covering it is pretty clear in the cars that that is a no no yet every medivac operator I worked at or know of in MB do that practice. Everyone I know just puts up with it because of a big paycheck and if you sms it how far do you think it would go. I think being a air ambulance TC turns a blind eye. maybe with new duty rules than that will get cleared up to...one day lol

[Northern Flyer]

ah the good old recovering questions. resting and covering it is pretty clear in the cars that that is a no no yet every medivac operator I worked at or know of in MB do that practice. Everyone I know just puts up with it because of a big paycheck and if you sms it how far do you think it would go. I think being a air ambulance TC turns a blind eye. maybe with new duty rules than that will get cleared up to...one day lol

What new duty rules?

I also played the "on" duty rest game for many years in MB. I am quite curious what will happen on this subject. I think once you start your day you should do your 14 then be off for an appropriate rest period.

[BEFAN5]

ah the good old recovering questions. resting and covering it is pretty clear in the cars that that is a no no yet every medivac operator I worked at or know of in MB do that practice. Everyone I know just puts up with it because of a big paycheck and if you sms it how far do you think it would go. I think being a air ambulance TC turns a blind eye. maybe with new duty rules than that will get cleared up to...one day lol

What new duty rules?

I also played the "on" duty rest game for many years in MB. I am quite curious what will happen on this subject. I think once you start your day you should do your 14 then be off for an appropriate rest period.

As it should be..

I heard Sky North got the wooden spoon from Transport? They now do 14 hours. The phone rings, they are done 14 hours later. No if's, and's or but's. That is an unverified statement that I just heard from word of mouth. Keewatin as well. Not sure though. Anyone from either op lurking the forums?

[bobcaygeon]

deleted-double posted

[bobcaygeon]

Both those companies have the same Inspector.

I fully support it if all the industry has to do it but this is not currently the case.

The operator should be able to decide when the rest starts. (but have to wait until crew is fully rested again)

The price for this is easy to see. Shorter duty days and more restrictions but more days worked for pilots.

There is no CAR from TC that states 14 on, 14 off or 7 on, 7 off!!!!! Just 100 hrs in 30 days and 36 hrs off in 7 day or 3 days off in 17 days.

Many pilots will choose to do this to maximize time off.

I hope they crack down on this practice, I can remember numerous occasions where I would get a call for a short trip, say 4 hrs from call till back at base. So now I get back at noon and the dispatcher says so you're good till 10pm if another call comes in and you're fresh at 930pm if a call doesn't come in. So I slept all night and worked 4 hrs, now I'm supposed to go to sleep for 8 hrs. Never happened, what would happen is I'd watch the clock all day and hope for another call to come in before I was "refreshed". What also would happen is a call for another trip would come but you couldn't do it with the day you had left, so they would either call another crew to do it, and you'd still be fresh at 930pm or they would see if the station would wait until you were fresh and guess what, the phone would ring at 930 on the dot, now you're good for 14 more hours on the same 8 hrs sleep from the 1st trip. For some reason that practice went on for years and I bet still does.
For one company, I had 12 hr shifts and the worst case senario you could get your first call at the 11th hour and have to go, but as soon as you were back the next shift took over, except for the rare occassion where you could get re-routed on your way back to base and end up doing a second trip.
Either way it's needs to be cracked down on and made fair for all companies, because the ones doing it safer need more crews and have a cost disadvantage.

Your beef about having to sleep at noon will never ever change. The major airline pilots deal with it when crossing time zones, evenjust from one end of this country to the other ie a Jazz or AC320 crew YVR based crew can do a 0500L dep from St. John's (YYT) to YYZ on a min rest period as per contract (10 hrs at Jazz, do the math, that's a 0030 yvr time dep time. Making for rest period start time of 13:30 yvr time. Whether you are scheduled to do it or assigned it on reserve, it is still a challenge.

But that is what pilots choose to do to maximize their days off!!!!

[Big Pistons Forever]

Both those companies have the same Inspector.

I fully support it if all the industry has to do it but this is not currently the case.

The operator should be able to decide when the rest starts. (but have to wait until crew is fully rested again)

The price for this is easy to see. Shorter duty days and more restrictions but more days worked for pilots.

There is no CAR from TC that states 14 on, 14 off or 7 on, 7 off!!!!! Just 100 hrs in 30 days and 36 hrs off in 7 day or 3 days off in 17 days.

Many pilots willchoose to do this to maximize time off.

I hope they crack down on this practice, I can remember numerous occasions where I would get a call for a short trip, say 4 hrs from call till back at base. So now I get back at noon and the dispatcher says so you're good till 10pm if another call comes in and you're fresh at 930pm if a call doesn't come in. So I slept all night and worked 4 hrs, now I'm supposed to go to sleep for 8 hrs. Never happened, what would happen is I'd watch the clock all day and hope for another call to come in before I was "refreshed". What also would happen is a call for another trip would come but you couldn't do it with the day you had left, so they would either call another crew to do it, and you'd still be fresh at 930pm or they would see if the station would wait until you were fresh and guess what, the phone would ring at 930 on the dot, now you're good for 14 more hours on the same 8 hrs sleep from the 1st trip. For some reason that practice went on for years and I bet still does.
For one company, I had 12 hr shifts and the worst case senario you could get your first call at the 11th hour and have to go, but as soon as you were back the next shift took over, except for the rare occassion where you could get re-routed on your way back to base and end up doing a second trip.
Either way it's needs to be cracked down on and made fair for all companies, because the ones doing it safer need more crews and have a cost disadvantage.

Your beef about having to sleep at noon will never ever change. The major airline pilots deal with it when crossing time zones, evenjust from one end of this country to the other ie a Jazz or AC320 crew YVR based crew can do a 0500L dep from St. John's (YYT) to YYZ on a min rest period as per contract (10 hrs at Jazz, do the math, that's a 0030 yvr time dep time. Making for rest period start time of 13:30 yvr time. Whether you are scheduled to do it or assigned it on reserve, it is still a challenge.

But that is what pilots choose to do to maximize their days off!!!!

So are you are saying Air Canada will call a Reserve Pilot 5 mins before his Reserve duty day ends and say, you are reset because we didn't call you within the last 8 hours and now you can start a new 14 hour duty day ?

[BE20 Driver]

All the operators I worked for in Manitoba do this as well. It's one of the reasons I am really thankful that I no longer do medevacs. IIRC, someone brought this up at Keewatin when I worked there. I don't remember the response other than to say that management made it clear that they would not be changing this until they were forced to do so. I suspect that most medevac operators that don't have a dedicated day/night shift will cry about how they will have to charge more for their services because they will have to make pilots work more or get new pilots.
Quite frankly, I am surprised that there aren't more accidents in the medevac industry due to fatigue.

[BEFAN5]

Both those companies have the same Inspector.

I fully support it if all the industry has to do it but this is not currently the case.

The operator should be able to decide when the rest starts. (but have to wait until crew is fully rested again)

The price for this is easy to see. Shorter duty days and more restrictions but more days worked for pilots.

There is no CAR from TC that states 14 on, 14 off or 7 on, 7 off!!!!! Just 100 hrs in 30 days and 36 hrs off in 7 day or 3 days off in 17 days.

Many pilots willchoose to do this to maximize time off.

I hope they crack down on this practice, I can remember numerous occasions where I would get a call for a short trip, say 4 hrs from call till back at base. So now I get back at noon and the dispatcher says so you're good till 10pm if another call comes in and you're fresh at 930pm if a call doesn't come in. So I slept all night and worked 4 hrs, now I'm supposed to go to sleep for 8 hrs. Never happened, what would happen is I'd watch the clock all day and hope for another call to come in before I was "refreshed". What also would happen is a call for another trip would come but you couldn't do it with the day you had left, so they would either call another crew to do it, and you'd still be fresh at 930pm or they would see if the station would wait until you were fresh and guess what, the phone would ring at 930 on the dot, now you're good for 14 more hours on the same 8 hrs sleep from the 1st trip. For some reason that practice went on for years and I bet still does.
For one company, I had 12 hr shifts and the worst case senario you could get your first call at the 11th hour and have to go, but as soon as you were back the next shift took over, except for the rare occassion where you could get re-routed on your way back to base and end up doing a second trip.
Either way it's needs to be cracked down on and made fair for all companies, because the ones doing it safer need more crews and have a cost disadvantage.

Your beef about having to sleep at noon will never ever change. The major airline pilots deal with it when crossing time zones, evenjust from one end of this country to the other ie a Jazz or AC320 crew YVR based crew can do a 0500L dep from St. John's (YYT) to YYZ on a min rest period as per contract (10 hrs at Jazz, do the math, that's a 0030 yvr time dep time. Making for rest period start time of 13:30 yvr time. Whether you are scheduled to do it or assigned it on reserve, it is still a challenge.

But that is what pilots choose to do to maximize their days off!!!!

You are really missing the point. Air Canada pilots know when they are on call, reserve, and when they are off work. They arent told "go home now but remember you are still working and if you by chance are home for 8 hours, you are fresh and we can call you to go to hng kong. The whole issue is fatigued crews because they don't know if they should be sleeping or getting ready to be re-freshed.

[4murslooth]

From an ex law enforcer type .....

The simplest way to determine if you are off-duty compliant is to ask yourself if you could have a beer now if you felt like it without violating the regulation.

If the answer is no ... then you're on duty.

Its really just that easy.

[Northern Flyer]

From an ex law enforcer type .....

The simplest way to determine if you are off-duty compliant is to ask yourself if you could have a beer now if you felt like it without violating the regulation.

If the answer is no ... then you're on duty.

Its really just that easy.

Not really in this case. Even when you are off duty during the 24 hour on call schedule you only usually have your 8 hours to reset. The 8 hours bottle to throttle rule makes being able to drink more or less impossible at any time during your tour.

[bobcaygeon]

BEFAN5

It's a two way street, when all pilots starting using their rest period to get rest instead of surfing the net, playing tour of duty, commuting to work, fishing.........you will be able to blame rest issues solely on the operators and TC.

As stated again, if the rules are enforced equally to remove all competitive advantage created by POI interpretation of this issue alone, which should be realistic, I have no problem with eliminating the "good til, fresh at.." operation.

[bobcaygeon]

From an ex law enforcer type .....

The simplest way to determine if you are off-duty compliant is to ask yourself if you could have a beer now if you felt like it without violating the regulation.

If the answer is no ... then you're on duty.

Its really just that easy.

Not really in this case. Even when you are off duty during the 24 hour on call schedule you only usually have your 8 hours to reset. The 8 hours bottle to throttle rule makes being able to drink more or less impossible at any time during your tour.

That works, you step off the plane, crack a beer on the way to your bed whether it is noon or 0200 and drink fast.

[mbav8r]

Bobcaygeon wrote;
Your beef about having to sleep at noon will never ever change. The major airline pilots deal with it when crossing time zones, evenjust from one end of this country to the other ie a Jazz or AC320 crew YVR based crew can do a 0500L dep from St. John's (YYT) to YYZ on a min rest period as per contract (10 hrs at Jazz, do the math, that's a 0030 yvr time dep time. Making for rest period start time of 13:30 yvr time. Whether you are scheduled to do it or assigned it on reserve, it is still a challenge.

First of all, the min rest period at Jazz is 11 hours and if you cross more than 2 time zones the min rest is increased to 13 hours. It can be reduced if the hotel is at the airport or with delayed operations, either way at no point will we get less than 8 hours sleep opportunity. During IROPS(irregular operations), if I figure I need 1 hour to get some food and personal hygiene and 1 hour in the morning for same, then my min rest is 10 hours plus travel to and from airport.
Second, as stated at NO time are we resting AND on duty, we always know when we are on rest period.

As stated again, if the rules are enforced equally to remove all competitive advantage created by POI interpretation of this issue alone, which should be realistic, I have no problem with eliminating the "good til, fresh at.." operation.

By this statement I can assume you are one of those type of operations, would you have a problem telling TC the above statement, without anonymity?