GTAA: 1st Snow removal + FLOW delays = BEYOND LIVID!

[I WAS Birddog]

*This is regarding the GTAA only*

It's not like it's July and we got a freak snowfall and all the snow-trucks have been buried deep in the garage and the drivers are long gone home for summer.

It's December 29, almost January. **Where were ALL the trucks at the MOST expensive airport in the world to operate of? Where are the services provided to ensure a zero or minimum interruption at the most costly airport for airlines to land & take off from?!

Why are we being subjected to lengthy flow control not to mention holds because 1/2 dozen snowflakes fall from the sky onto YYZ? Lookit, If it's a wicked blizzard with 28.80" altimeter setting and winds are favouring 33/15's with Cat III approaches at peak hour, then (maybe) of course delays are understandable because your snow ploughs are very busy.
But that was NOT the case yesterday. Not even close.

My point is...if the GTAA puzzle-palace is charging top dollar, we're expecting top level service. There is no excuse for FLOW control delays followed by holding delays because 1/2" of snow fell from the heavens IF you have correct number of trucks out that match the size of the airport with weather considerations. Quit cutting budget corners just to save for year end executive monetary bonuses.

****Your cost cutting isn't reflected in any cost savings being past down to your clients.***
Also, you've added 3 hours to my already 12+ hour duty day and I fear more future FLOW control will become frequent due to lack of service because of unnecessary spending cuts on servicing the airport.
So clean it up (literally) and let's keep the media out of this shall we.

[Canoehead]

It would be interesting to know the numbers on this. For example how many overtime man-hours would be required to operate properly as you say. How much extra fuel and maintenance cost to the GTAA? Are there penalties or 'reduced charges' back to the airlines for controllable delays?

I guess the bottom line is that if the GTAA isn't having to pay for poor performance for a day here and there, why would they?

Money talks; customer service be damned.

[FOX69]

+1

3 concurrent ATIS at YYZ: RMK PCPN VRY LGT. Yet 20 min ground delay PLUS 10 min airborne hold resulted in landing assignment on a runway (6R) still being reported as braking action "fair-poor". Not a big deal, but seriously... for a relatively minor snow event (it's Canada, snow in December is not a surprise) the level of runway cleanliness at the biggest airport does not reflect the fees paid by the users. And that is a little embarrassing.

[The Hammer]

After the air france overrun, a fair to poor braking report is going to grind that place to a halt. Not to mention other recent over runs in YOW. The lawyers sit eagerly waiting for an incident.

As for manpower, how many O/T man hours were spent last week with the freezing rain on the 21st that went through? Was this cost directly passed on to the carriers? Delays, deicing waits don't count. How much do you want to spend having deicers and plow truck drivers sitting around on CAVOK days in the winter? You can only wash your truck so many times.

I have way too many yyz turns to remember anything but the extreme cases. In a Dash 8, you sit so far down the priority list for departures/deicing relative to long haul and jet traffic.

Not defending just looking from the other side of the table.

Airlines don't plan any better either by all trying to depart at the exact same time (even their own flights)

[flyinhigh]

+2,

Came in last night making great time with lots of extra gas. We hit Detroit got slowed to 250knts, than 210 by YXU to than a vectored hold. Once we were inbound we again go reduced to 190 about 50nm back to a LOOOOOONG vectored final to now slow more to follow a C-208.

Needless to say we went from being to 10 Min early to 20 Min late and at now Min Fuel, than leaving well that is another story in its own.

My question is. When we were coming in, why is the biggest baddest airport in Canada at a rush hour running single rwy ops for arrivals and single rwy for departures. Crist you got 3 runways to use. WTF??????

The GTAA needs to wake the F#$K up just like our Government there the most corrupt group out there.

P.S- This rant is in NO WAY against the Controllers in YYZ, Your doing a great job, just being dealt the shittiest stick possible by management by not being prepared.

[cossack]

A Tower perspective:

As soon as snow clearing is required, the operation goes from whatever we were running (triple or dual arrive/depart) to land one depart one. This does impact the movement rate a lot (50% reduction maybe) but is necessary to allow the plows continuous movement around the airport.

The need for plowing is usually identified ahead of time and a time for the run to commence is agreed upon a little in advance and flow measures for arrivals put in place. Yesterday the plows appeared without this agreement at about 6pm hoping to get a circuit done before we were forced onto the 15s due to snow/crosswind and less than "good" braking.

The plows do the circuit in a prescribed order and when we are on the 05/06L operation, the order of clearing is 24L, 06L, 33L, 05 and 15L.

It should take about 70 minutes to complete a circuit assuming we can keep them moving. Last night, because of the lack of notice, they were delayed before they got onto 06L for about 10 minutes. The rest of the circuit went to plan. Because we had more traffic inbound than the one runway's arrival capacity, there were holding delays. Departures going through de-icing are virtually self-metering. There is, however, a delay for departures when the plows finish 24L, have to cross 06L and turn around on D at M before heading down 06L. At this point there is about a 10 minute period with no departures followed by 15 minutes of departures from 06R until 06L is cleaned and departures are resumed from that runway.

As the plows head to 33L the arrivals on 05 are switched to 06R. Land 06R depart 06L continues for about 40 minutes while 33L, 05 and 15L are cleaned. Once the plows finish 15L north of H and are heading south, the arrivals are switched back to 05. This may continue while the snow accumulates.

Landing on 06R and departing on 06L in weather less than 3SM and 1000' means the runways are dependent and departures must be rolling by time the 06R arrival reaches 2 mile final. 4 mile arrival spacing is used to achieve this. Departures needing engine runs in position really kill the movement rate. If at all possible ask to do these runs prior to taking position and ground will keep space behind you clear.

[2R]

Heathrow would have closed with that much snow,
They are the experts at FOGGY BOTTOM operations though using tugs to get aircraft off runways to the gate

[Gino Under]

Here we go again.

I thought pilots were licensed to operate aeroplanes, NOT airports.
Last time I checked, bad weather automatically meant delays. Without a fairly comprehensive knowledge of what's happening on the ground how can anyone be brass enough to tell the GTAA how it's done or how it should be done?

C'mon.

Really?

Gino
P.S. Birdog, I feel your pain. But, sh*t happens.

[hst]

Departures needing engine runs in position really kill the movement rate. If at all possible ask to do these runs prior to taking position and ground will keep space behind you clear.

Cossack, you'll have to take that up with Boeing!!!!

[cossack]

Departures needing engine runs in position really kill the movement rate. If at all possible ask to do these runs prior to taking position and ground will keep space behind you clear.

Cossack, you'll have to take that up with Boeing!!!!

B738s seem to be the main culprits here with one airline refusing to start the run until in receipt of take off clearance. Not had that request from any other type/sub-type and even some airlines flying that type don't seem to need the run up.

CRJs ask for engine cleaning on the taxiway before reaching the runway and we're happy to oblige.

If you need 30 seconds running the engines after take off clearance and we need you rolling by the time the arrival is at 2 miles final, you have really tied our hands. We can ask for more space from arrival but since they're swamped they're not going to be too willing to oblige and cause delays on the way in. Its a Catch 22.

[hst]

I am not familiar with the 738's but it may be an SOP issue versus individual pilot technique. On my type, a standing take-off (5-8 secs. static) is required after de-icing, contaminated runway ops etc....is this something you guys need awareness of prior to being put in position?

[Flying Nutcracker]

With respect to engine clearing runs it's hard to get 70% n1 on a slippery taxiway without sliding. If taxiways are kept reasonably clear then for sure we will ask for it, but in bad conditions it is safer to do the run-up on a runway.

Flow rates are good to have, but when conditions go south we have to accept that safety is still the number one priority. Just because we operate in a country that has a winter season doesn't mean we can operate like LAX year-round! Prepared or not, snow will slow things down!

Just my humble opinion.

[.......]

I guess YYZ needs 4 more runways then...

[Flying Nutcracker]

Doesn't matter how many runways an airport has, once one goes down for snow removal the flow rate will go down. Insert smiley with a wink.

Landing in yyz the other night with fairly good braking was easy, getting on the taxiway damn right scary! Minimum occupancy times conducted in bad conditions to me is asking for trouble. But then again... I am just an average pilot... Insert tongue in cheek

[Cough Syrup]

Compared to YYC Pearson is top-notch....

[I WAS Birddog]

Heated runways. There. Problem solved.

Thanks Cossack. That was an amazing detailed explanation of the whole process. I'm less dumb now.

I'm better now folks. Seems if I miss hitting the gym/MMA more than 2 nights in a row because I was delayed arriving at night and missed my class...my residual, left over monkey DNA takes over my otherwise easy going patience. It's all good now that I've had my head kicked by younger more talented fighters.

Thanks all for contributing to this thread. It put a human element to the fact we're all working together towards the same goal. So in conclusion we can ALL agree winter sucks.

Cheers & Happy New Year!!!

IWBD

Breakbreak

I thought pilots were licensed to operate aeroplanes, NOT airports.
Last time I checked, bad weather automatically meant delays. Without a fairly comprehensive knowledge of what's happening on the ground how can anyone be brass enough to tell the GTAA how it's done or how it should be done?

C'mon.

Really?

Gino
P.S. Birdog, I feel your pain. But, sh*t happens.

Thanks Gino for the reply.
Read my initial post again. This isn't about worst case scenario winter weather. It's about a light sprinkle of snow.
Is this going to ruin the institution of GTAA because someone has an opposing opinion on how CYYZ is being run? Does anyone have to be an expert on airports to have a opinion? You can talk meteors on here doesn't mean you have to have gone to Mars first to express an opinion.
The GTAA is close to as perfect as it can get. But, can it be made a little better? Yes it can. The moment you halt the evolution of progressive thought...that's when you will be made obsolete and replaced. Being complacent leaves little room from progression towards perfection.
Thanks for giving us your opinion. It helped me realise I need to be a better communicator on here so that my message isn't squed or misdirected.
Cheers!

[185_guy]

On a different note, why do airlines incur their own delays and costs getting deiced, when the airplane is cold soaked and there are a few flurries in the air that you know are not going to stick on your airplane?

[Gino Under]

Birddog

Sincerely, I completely get it which is why I said "I feel your pain". But, despite the pursuit of perfection we all aspire to, any perceived failure to get it right is usually shared by those whose job it is to get it right in the first place. Including the GTAA Duty Manager and Field Services manager. Sucks to be them.
I appreciate that you were just venting and I apologize for my seeming lack of appreciation of what it was you were trying to say but honestly, I get it.
My first thought when I read your comment, I believe, was remembering an old expression that reminded of numerous times I too was pist at seemingly needless delays. Here is just another time flying an aeroplane when I too wished I were on the ground ISO wishing I were up there. I'm sure you know the saying I'm referring to.

Believe me, I know this forum is about opinion and I get that too. I'm sure our opinions don't vary all that much.

Health and prosperity in the New Year to you and yours,

Gino

[cossack]

I am not familiar with the 738's but it may be an SOP issue versus individual pilot technique. On my type, a standing take-off (5-8 secs. static) is required after de-icing, contaminated runway ops etc....is this something you guys need awareness of prior to being put in position?

Anything out of the ordinary we really like to know about in advance. If you can get onto the runway quickly, you can power up straight away so that when the take off clearance comes you're ready to roll. 5-8 seconds isn't much, but in 30 seconds the guy on approach has travelled about a mile. If we add that mile on to every gap just in case you need that 30 seconds there will be a lot less aircraft landing and longer delays.

Landing in yyz the other night with fairly good braking was easy, getting on the taxiway damn right scary! Minimum occupancy times conducted in bad conditions to me is asking for trouble. But then again... I am just an average pilot... Insert tongue in cheek

Minimum ROT is more in poor weather and we space arrivals accordingly not expecting you to race into the exit at 30 knots. Not saying we won't encourage you to try a little harder sometimes when there's a tight one going on.

Heated runways. There. Problem solved.

Thanks Cossack. That was an amazing detailed explanation of the whole process. I'm less dumb now.

We jokingly suggested the heated runway the other night. I wonder what it would cost. I'm happy my explanation helped you understand a little of what is going on off mic.

[BE20 Driver]

GTAA= Go To Another Airport

Happy New Year all!

[Flying Low]

What's the best thing about Pearson?

V1!

[Cough Syrup]

[Doc]

I just love it how a single snow flake can bring the mighty GTA to it's knees! The thing I LOVE about the GTA....not living anywhere near it anymore.

[gonnabeapilot]

I am not familiar with the 738's but it may be an SOP issue versus individual pilot technique. On my type, a standing take-off (5-8 secs. static) is required after de-icing, contaminated runway ops etc....is this something you guys need awareness of prior to being put in position?

From the Boeing 737 Flight Crew Operations Manual - Supplementary Procedures - Adverse Weather:
*Icing conditions exist when OAT (on the ground) or TAT (in-flight) is 10C or below and any of the following exist:
-visible moisture (clouds, fog with visibility less than one statue mile (1600m), rain, snow, sleet, ice crystals and so on) is present, or
-ice, snow, slush or standing water is present on the ramps, taxiways, or runways

Taxi-Out
When engine anti-ice is required and the OAT is 3C or below, do an engine run up, as needed, to minimize ice build-up. Use the following procedure:

Run-up to a minimum of 70% N1 for approximately 30 seconds duration at intervals no greater than 30 minutes.

Takeoff Procedure
Do the normal Takeoff Proceedure with the following modification:
When engine anti-ice is required and the OAT is 3C or below, the takeoff must be preceded by a static engine run-up. Use the following procedure:

Run-up to a minimum of 70% N1 and confirm stable engine operation before the start of the takeoff roll.


To meet these two Boeing requirements, the operator I work for requires crews to perform the 30 second engine run when cleared for take-off. Further to this, our SOPs also state that in order for the take-off perfomance data to remain valid flight crews should hit the TOGA switch and start the take-off roll if the aircraft starts to slide forward during the engine run. As a result, on a runway with a low CRFI (where the aircraft starting to slide forward is likely) most crews will refuse to start the engine run until take-off clearance has been given. I don't doubt that this is a pain for ATC however for us there's no way around it. When I fly, I always try to inform the tower controller as we are approaching the front of the line so they can take it into their planning but that's about the limit of what I can do.

[cossack]

From the Boeing 737 Flight Crew Operations Manual - Supplementary Procedures - Adverse Weather:
*Icing conditions exist when OAT (on the ground) or TAT (in-flight) is 10C or below and any of the following exist:
-visible moisture (clouds, fog with visibility less than one statue mile (1600m), rain, snow, sleet, ice crystals and so on) is present, or
-ice, snow, slush or standing water is present on the ramps, taxiways, or runways

Taxi-Out
When engine anti-ice is required and the OAT is 3C or below, do an engine run up, as needed, to minimize ice build-up. Use the following procedure:

Run-up to a minimum of 70% N1 for approximately 30 seconds duration at intervals no greater than 30 minutes.

Takeoff Procedure
Do the normal Takeoff Proceedure with the following modification:
When engine anti-ice is required and the OAT is 3C or below, the takeoff must be preceded by a static engine run-up. Use the following procedure:

Run-up to a minimum of 70% N1 and confirm stable engine operation before the start of the takeoff roll.


To meet these two Boeing requirements, the operator I work for requires crews to perform the 30 second engine run when cleared for take-off. Further to this, our SOPs also state that in order for the take-off perfomance data to remain valid flight crews should hit the TOGA switch and start the take-off roll if the aircraft starts to slide forward during the engine run. As a result, on a runway with a low CRFI (where the aircraft starting to slide forward is likely) most crews will refuse to start the engine run until take-off clearance has been given. I don't doubt that this is a pain for ATC however for us there's no way around it. When I fly, I always try to inform the tower controller as we are approaching the front of the line so they can take it into their planning but that's about the limit of what I can do.

Excellent information. Thanks.

The earlier you can inform ATC that you'll need the 30 seconds the better. Spacing on final can be adjusted accordingly if we know early enough. If you wait until you're close to the runway, the arrivals will already be established on the ILS with spacing previously agreed upon between Tower and Arrival and you may find yourself being bypassed until a larger arrival hole can be made.