ATR versus Dash

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yak8
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ATR versus Dash

Post by yak8 »

Why do ATR more popular than Dash in the rest of the world ?
Could two similar plane be so much different money wise ? ( sell and operation cost )
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retired or retarded
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Re: ATR versus Dash

Post by retired or retarded »

I do know ATR does sometimes offer incentives like training the crew for free initially if you go with the ATR.
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CL-Skadoo!
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Re: ATR versus Dash

Post by CL-Skadoo! »

I find the ATR product to be much more passenger friendly than the Dash 8.
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pelmet
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Re: ATR versus Dash

Post by pelmet »

Apparently the ATR72 is more economical but slower. Probably means that most companies that have a lot of short legs will go for the ATR.
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fish4life
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Re: ATR versus Dash

Post by fish4life »

not sure if it is part of the design but ATR's seem wider inside, more comfortable than Dash. Friends at CA said ATR is like a built down Airbus while a Dash 8 is a built up Twin Otter inside so I'm sure that plays into it in other parts of the world.
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imarai
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Re: ATR versus Dash

Post by imarai »

The Dash-8 series carries ice much better than the ATR-42 -72 series. With the exception of the Q400, the ATRs are a wee bit faster in cruise.
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CL-Skadoo!
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Re: ATR versus Dash

Post by CL-Skadoo! »

imarai wrote:The Dash-8 series carries ice much better than the ATR-42 -72 series. With the exception of the Q400, the ATRs are a wee bit faster in cruise.
Have you flown the ATR in ice? Because I will argue with you all day on that point. The Dash 8 does just fine with ice as does the ATR.
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turbo-prop
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Re: ATR versus Dash

Post by turbo-prop »

Actually the dash is faster and not talking about the Q400.
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onspeed
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Re: ATR versus Dash

Post by onspeed »

The ATR's are fine in ice, 5 yrs on the airplane i've never had a problem. Also it can operate without much ground support with it's prop break it won't require a GPU or ground conditioning cart. In terms of cargo compartment the ATR have both forward and aft which make the weight and balance simpler.

In terms of fuel ATR says it is 40% more fuel efficient then the q400 on 300NM sectors and 20% overall cheaper to operate.

I'm interested to see which aircraft WJ goes with. I wonder what stage length they are looking to deploy them over.
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Last edited by onspeed on Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
MIQ
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Re: ATR versus Dash

Post by MIQ »

The ATR is incredibly sensitive in weight and balance issues, especially if the passengers are not seated properly. Especially when you have to load a lot into the back compartment. I guess that's why it also has the tail post which the Dash 8 does not have. The Dash 8 can be a little tricky to load as well but in my opinion it's not as bad as with the ATR.
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FriendlyBear
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Re: ATR versus Dash

Post by FriendlyBear »

Depends which Dash 8 version you are comparing the ATR product to. I know that over here in Europe we evaluated the ATR family of aircraft and the performance difference was astonishingly lower than the Dash 8 300 series with the extended 10 minute MTOP option. What was established was that with icing increments, max all up weight and single engine operations at MTOP the ATR 42/72 could not outclimb the INN airport restrictions (one of the most demanding in Europe) to reach MSA for enroute operations. The Dash 8 300 with the increased MTOP option could outperform the ATR under the same circumstances. The Q400, on the other hand is in a class of its own. I have thousands of hours as Captain on all Dash 8 versions including the Q400 and the Q400 is a power house and ass hauler - she gets up and goes: max all up weight, single engine performace with icing increment switch selected to on in icing conditions will outperform any available commercial turboprop that is currently available on the market under the given circumstances. I have seen the high density seating from 80 seats down to the increased pitch seating arrangement of 68 seats and the Q400 is a comfortable aircraft for both passengers and crew. The only gripe I have with the Q400 is I wish that Bombardier would not have certfied it under the same Dash 8 blanket rating but rather a sepereate rating, this would have allowed Bomabrdier to get rid or the conditionlevers, Bus tie switch etc and completely modernize the entire fligh deck set up. Bombardier also supplies free typerating training via FlightSafety in YYZ with each aircraft order. Another annoying difference that negated the ATR product from the initial selection was that the main gear is more limiting in cross wind conditions than the main gear of the Dash 8/Q400 family of aircraft, I can't remember what the limits were exactly, but the Dash 8 gear structure was designed to a higher side-load tolerance. After our company sent the 42/72 aircraft back after the competition, we were of the opinion that the ATR are an inferior product (including the forward baggae compartment and rear passenger door).
If WestJet does select the Q400 aircraft they will be getting one excellent product. I would suggest that they take the option for the rear airstair to be installed as a standard - it really does increase the overall utility of the machine. If I have to stay my whole career on the Q400 I will be one happy pilot.... flying the Q400 is a priviledge day in day out!
The Q400 has more performance on one engine at max weight than any other aircraft I have ever flown. The most interesting flight I ever made was a "sand bag passenger flight" with a Bombardier company pilot where we departed INN airport at max all up weight, simulated a non feathered engine failure, kept the gear down, flaps at 10 degrees and were able to meet all climb restrictions at over 2400 feet per minute high alpha climb rate on one engine - if I remember correctly we had ISA+15 degrees SAT.
The one big mystery of ATR vs Dash 8 happened when Air Dolomiti cashed their Dash 8's in for ATR products.... then we heard that ATR basically paid them to do it for market share.
Anyways, hope that this little bit of info helps to clear things up a little.
Fly safe
The Bear
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fish4life
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Re: ATR versus Dash

Post by fish4life »

not saying Dash 8's aren't great but if I remember right my friends at CA were saying that the max demonstrated x-wind on the ATR is over 40kts so I can't see that being a problem or limitation ever...
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Caracrane
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Re: ATR versus Dash

Post by Caracrane »

ATR full swing over the dash; Quebec North Shore, James Bay coast etc... proved it was better and paxs comfort is better too.
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rigpiggy
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Re: ATR versus Dash

Post by rigpiggy »

considering more Dashes have been built than ATR's I don't know what yer talking about
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TeePeeCreeper
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Re: ATR versus Dash

Post by TeePeeCreeper »

Caracrane wrote:ATR full swing over the dash; Quebec North Shore, James Bay coast etc... proved it was better and paxs comfort is better too.
Sounds to me like you might just be a QC North shore ATR driver?!!!

I've no vested intrest in this debate, but would you care to back your comments up with facts?

Merci mon ami,

A+
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GGCC
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Re: ATR versus Dash

Post by GGCC »

(abridged)
Anyways, hope that this little bit of info helps to clear things up a little.
Fly safe
The Bear
I will never be able to fly an ATR nor a Dash 8 and have no vested interest whatsoever but even a big dummy like me can appreciate the comparison that The Bear just presented...

edit: Yup i'm remarking on what The Bear posted, just parsed it down to his last remarks (dave 5:06 AST)

Regards;

Dave
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dashx
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Re: ATR versus Dash

Post by dashx »

.........................
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redbaron
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Re: ATR versus Dash

Post by redbaron »

Aft pax door is super ghetto...
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vcollazo
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Re: ATR versus Dash

Post by vcollazo »

I definitely don't have a dog in this fight as I never flew either airplane, but when I was a pilot for NWA I got to commute on both of them. I was not particularly impressed with the ATR, but I was very favorably impressed with the Dash 8s. The ability to carry a full load long distances while having adequate fuel for alternates and IFR fuel reserves, the amazing amount of airframe ice they could handle, and the really smooth landings with that trailing link gear. I have to admit that I am a bit biased towards Canadian aviation workmanship. When we got our NWA DC9s updated in the early 90s with new interiors, stage 3 noise reduction, IRAN of many system components, etc., the work was done at 3 locations, 2 in the US and 1 in Canada. As soon as I started my preflight on one of the modified aircraft I could tell whether or not it had been done in Canada, the quality of the workmanship was outstanding. The flight controls were solid with no play, the wheelwells were so clean you could eat off of them, and there were no problems with any of the systems. One of the US vendors was so bad we had to sue them for non compliance, and the other one was definitely inferior to the Canadian center. I sent several emails to our maintenance center trequesting that we get all the work done in Canada. They finally wrote back and requested that I send them no more. They knew the work was much better, but there was no way 1 center could do all of our DC9s in a year's time.
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teacher
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Re: ATR versus Dash

Post by teacher »

ATRs are cheaper there's no doubt but you get less for your money. I was told (not confirmed) that ATR being a some what subsidized consortium builds aircraft regardless of whether they are being bought (ie white tails) where Bombardier will only build aircraft if they have been ordered. This forces ATR to sell them cheaper and allows BBD to ask more since they don't have product sitting on the ramp. This was most evident during the last economic slow down.
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fish4life
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Re: ATR versus Dash

Post by fish4life »

vcollazo wrote:I definitely don't have a dog in this fight as I never flew either airplane, but when I was a pilot for NWA I got to commute on both of them. I was not particularly impressed with the ATR, but I was very favorably impressed with the Dash 8s. The ability to carry a full load long distances while having adequate fuel for alternates and IFR fuel reserves, the amazing amount of airframe ice they could handle, and the really smooth landings with that trailing link gear. I have to admit that I am a bit biased towards Canadian aviation workmanship. When we got our NWA DC9s updated in the early 90s with new interiors, stage 3 noise reduction, IRAN of many system components, etc., the work was done at 3 locations, 2 in the US and 1 in Canada. As soon as I started my preflight on one of the modified aircraft I could tell whether or not it had been done in Canada, the quality of the workmanship was outstanding. The flight controls were solid with no play, the wheelwells were so clean you could eat off of them, and there were no problems with any of the systems. One of the US vendors was so bad we had to sue them for non compliance, and the other one was definitely inferior to the Canadian center. I sent several emails to our maintenance center trequesting that we get all the work done in Canada. They finally wrote back and requested that I send them no more. They knew the work was much better, but there was no way 1 center could do all of our DC9s in a year's time.

Dash 8's have far from a trailing link gear landing is like dropping a shopping cart out of a pick up at 60mph... ATR's have the trailing link along with more fuel capacity.
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Diadem
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Re: ATR versus Dash

Post by Diadem »

I've never sat in a more uncomfortable seat, inside or outside an aircraft, than 7F's ATRs.
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Re: ATR versus Dash

Post by Driving Comet »

teacher wrote:ATRs are cheaper there's no doubt but you get less for your money. I was told (not confirmed) that ATR being a some what subsidized consortium builds aircraft regardless of whether they are being bought (ie white tails) where Bombardier will only build aircraft if they have been ordered. This forces ATR to sell them cheaper and allows BBD to ask more since they don't have product sitting on the ramp. This was most evident during the last economic slow down.
Bombardier will never stop building aircraft. There is an extremely complex supply chain that cannot just be stopped and started at will. If there is no back log for orders, the manufacturer will look at potential customers and build aircraft with open specs that correlate for the potential customer. There is a lot of work that goes in to building each customer spec so that the materials and parts arrive at the right time depending on aircraft position on the build line. Bombardier has been lucky enough to have the orders to allow them not to build white tails, but they will if they have to.

A more appropriate response you will see is a shift in how fast the build line moves, eg going from a 4 day move to a 5 day schedule.

Just an FYI.
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185/310
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Re: ATR versus Dash

Post by 185/310 »

The inside and seats all should be replaced on the 7F's 42's. They get beat up a lot because of the ongoing recons. However the 72 has much better seats.
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yak8
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Re: ATR versus Dash

Post by yak8 »

Dash 8 in order: 26 ( 8 new order for 2011 )
ATR in order : 224 ( 157 new order for 2011 )
There must be something extraordinary happening in here !

Having flown the Dash quite a bite, i know without a doubt that we have a perfect plane here ( even for the landing, you eventually get over it )
Bring it on,throw anything you have at it, and it's NO PROBLEMO, EVER, PERIOD ! :prayer:

So the above numbers kind of leave me doubtful....
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