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ATPL & CARS 400.03
Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:37 am
by nookie201
In reading Cars 400.03 - ATPL Exams are exempt from the 24 month exam Expiration rule.
Read confliction stories here on avcan,
Has anyone ever applied for ATPL after 24 month expiry ?
-N
Re: ATPL & CARS 400.03
Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:17 am
by Diadem
Perhaps you need to read a tad more closely. The exemption only applies if you used the ATPL exams to obtain a type rating, in which case the exams maintain permanent validity like the IATRA; if the exams were used to obtain a senior commercial pilots licence; or if the holder completed an integrated ATPL program within the past five years. If you don't meet any of these conditions and more than two years have passed since you wrote the exams, I guarantee your application will be denied.
Re: ATPL & CARS 400.03
Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:38 pm
by loopa
Diadem wrote:Perhaps you need to read a tad more closely. The exemption only applies if you used the ATPL exams to obtain a type rating, in which case the exams maintain permanent validity like the IATRA; if the exams were used to obtain a senior commercial pilots licence; or if the holder completed an integrated ATPL program within the past five years. If you don't meet any of these conditions and more than two years have passed since you wrote the exams, I guarantee your application will be denied.
Maybe I'm just dumbfounded with the CAR's, but where is a Type Rating defined under the CAR's?
To my understanding unless I've been given appropriate training (PCC/PPC), I can't just go and jump into a Jetstream or King Air with a CPL/MIFR even though my CPL holds validity for "SINGLE&MULTI ENGINE NON HIGH PERFORMANCE LAND AEROPLANE." While a King Air 200 has an MMO of 239 and a VSO of 75 (non high performance), I would still at the very least need some form of training (PCC) to fly this plane commercially.
So if a company chooses to train me in the form of a PPC, would that count as a type rating? Or would a type rating simply be implicated on a CPL if the PPC was done on an aircraft with a VNE of 250 or greater and a VSO of 80 or greater, as this would now be outside of the blanket type rating my CPL can respond to (HIGH PERFORMANCE).
The myth I hear is that aircraft above 12.5lbs are the only PPC's that freeze the exams as most of them meet the High Performance criteria, whereas a PPC on for example a King Air would not.
I would appreciate somebody with the knowledge the clarify this.
Cheers!
Re: ATPL & CARS 400.03
Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:59 pm
by Colonel Sanders
where is a Type Rating defined under the CAR's?
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... htm#421_40
DIVISION XI - AIRCRAFT TYPE RATINGS
421.40 Blanket and Individual Type Ratings
Where an applicant has met the applicable requirements for issuance, the following Permits and Licences may be endorsed with the indicated Type Ratings:
(2) Individual Type Ratings
An individual aircraft type rating is issued for aircraft not included in a blanket type rating. It is indicated by the appropriate aircraft type designator from Appendix A found at the end of this Subpart, endorsed on a permit or licence as follows:
(a) Aeroplanes
(i) each aeroplane with a minimum flight crew requirement of at least two pilots;
(ii) each aeroplane with a minimum flight crew requirement of at least two pilots utilizing a cruise relief pilot;
(iii) each high performance aeroplane type to be endorsed on a pilot licence - aeroplane category;
(iv) each aeroplane type to be endorsed on a flight engineer licence;
(v) each aeroplane type to be endorsed on a second officer rating; and
(vi) each aeroplane type to be endorsed on a licence for which no blanket type rating is issued.
(3) Individual Type Rating Requirements
(a) Aeroplane - Two Crew
(i) Knowledge
An applicant for an individual aircraft type rating for aeroplanes with a minimum flight crew requirement of at least two pilots shall have completed a program of ground school instruction and flight training on the aeroplane type, and
Private Pilot Licence - Aeroplane or Commercial Pilot Licence-Aeroplane
(A) in the case of the holder of a Private Pilot Licence-Aeroplane or Commercial Pilot Licence-Aeroplane, within the 24 months preceding the application for the first endorsement of the two crew rating, an applicant shall have obtained a minimum score of 70 percent (70%) on the Type Rating-Aeroplane (IATRA) written examination;
Airline Transport Pilot Licence - Aeroplane
(B) in the case of the applicant who has obtained a minimum score of 70 percent (70%) on the Airline Transport Pilot Licence-Aeroplane written examinations (SAMRA and SARON) within the 24 months preceding the application for the endorsement of the rating, the written examination requirement shall be considered to have been met; or
(C) in the case of the holder of an Airline Transport Pilot Licence — Aeroplane, the written examination requirement shall be considered to have been met, or
(D) in the case of an applicant who completed the airline transport pilot licence (ATP(A)) integrated course and who completed the Airline Transport Pilot Licence — Aeroplane written examinations within the five-year period immediately preceding the application for endorsement of the rating, the written examination requirement shall be considered to have been met.
Re: ATPL & CARS 400.03
Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:02 pm
by loopa
I'm just dumbfounded then LOL. Thanks Colonel
Re: ATPL & CARS 400.03
Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:27 pm
by Colonel Sanders
if a company chooses to train me in the form of a PPC, would that count as a type rating?
If you get a type rating, you will know it. You will be issued a new
licence sticker (sorry, label) listing the type on it. When you retire,
your ATPL will have a long list of types on it.
Re: ATPL & CARS 400.03
Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:36 am
by Shiny Side Up
Colonel Sanders wrote:
If you get a type rating, you will know it. You will be issued a new
licence sticker (sorry, label) listing the type on it.
I believe the correct term for these is "Self adhesive stamped labels similar to stickers."
Re: ATPL & CARS 400.03
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:21 am
by capt.pilot
loopa wrote:Diadem wrote:Perhaps you need to read a tad more closely. The exemption only applies if you used the ATPL exams to obtain a type rating, in which case the exams maintain permanent validity like the IATRA; if the exams were used to obtain a senior commercial pilots licence; or if the holder completed an integrated ATPL program within the past five years. If you don't meet any of these conditions and more than two years have passed since you wrote the exams, I guarantee your application will be denied.
Maybe I'm just dumbfounded with the CAR's, but where is a Type Rating defined under the CAR's?
To my understanding unless I've been given appropriate training (PCC/PPC), I can't just go and jump into a Jetstream or King Air with a CPL/MIFR even though my CPL holds validity for "SINGLE&MULTI ENGINE NON HIGH PERFORMANCE LAND AEROPLANE." While a King Air 200 has an MMO of 239 and a VSO of 75 (non high performance), I would still at the very least need some form of training (PCC) to fly this plane commercially.
So if a company chooses to train me in the form of a PPC, would that count as a type rating? Or would a type rating simply be implicated on a CPL if the PPC was done on an aircraft with a VNE of 250 or greater and a VSO of 80 or greater, as this would now be outside of the blanket type rating my CPL can respond to (HIGH PERFORMANCE).
The myth I hear is that aircraft above 12.5lbs are the only PPC's that freeze the exams as most of them meet the High Performance criteria, whereas a PPC on for example a King Air would not.
I would appreciate somebody with the knowledge the clarify this.
Cheers!
You will find that most King Airs( Except the 90) are considered High Performance at this page...
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/s ... e-2286.htm
and will therefore require it to be put on your license as a type rating.
You can issue an individual type rating like a BE20 (King Air 200) to a CPL holder, and would not require the ATPL exams complete to do so, therefore it wouldn't freeze the exams.. That's my understanding having just gone through this with transport..
Re: ATPL & CARS 400.03
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:35 am
by loopa
So the King Air 100 and 200 and 350 all freeze the ATPL writtens then? I haven't received a sticker, I just have it written by in my license by the chief pilot.
Re: ATPL & CARS 400.03
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:09 am
by Colonel Sanders
If you do not have a type rating - look at your licence booket sticker - then your SARON/SAMRA expire after 24 months.
However, as a CPL, you have a choice as to what written exams you do, for a type rating. You can either
a) write the IATRA (low-time), or
b) write the SARON/SAMRA (if you have 750TT)
If you choose door #2, and get a type rating on your licence, then I understand
the exams are good forever. You could wait 10 years before you visit a TC district
office with your logbooks for your ATPL.
I think I got that right. Caveat: I never bothered with that weird stuff. I just went
straight to my ATPL.
Re: ATPL & CARS 400.03
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:45 pm
by Aeros
You have to keep in mind that there are also two "kinds" of Type Ratings -- ones for High Performance Aeroplanes and ones for aeroplanes that require two crew members.
Getting a Type Rating for a High Performance Aeroplane (which does not have a written exam requirement) will not make your ATPL exams valid indefinitely.
If you were to use the SAMRA and SARON to qualify for a Type Rating on a two-crew aeroplane (which has a written examination requirement) those two exams will then remain valid indefinitely.
Re: ATPL & CARS 400.03
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:03 pm
by loopa
While that makes sense Aeros, where does it say that in the CAR's?
Re: ATPL & CARS 400.03
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:48 pm
by Colonel Sanders
two "kinds" of Type Ratings -- ones for High Performance Aeroplanes and ones for aeroplanes that require two crew members.
Of course! That was assumed in my posting above. In fact, if you rewind to my
cut & paste of the CARs, I only covered the two-crew type ratings.
High performance (single pilot) type ratings (eg P-51, T-33, F-86) have absolutely
NOTHING to do with two-crew type ratings or the ATPL. You don't need IATRA or
SARON/SAMRA writtens for a high-performance type rating - all you need is a PPL
and 200TT to act as PIC.
I haven't received a sticker
then you don't have a type rating. And only two-crew type ratings (which
require the IATRA or SAMRA/SARON written exams) freeze the ATPL writtens.
Re: ATPL & CARS 400.03
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:08 pm
by Aeros
loopa wrote:While that makes sense Aeros, where does it say that in the CAR's?
It's a couple of step process:
Start with 400.03
...
(2) Subsection (1) does not apply in respect of examinations that are required for the issuance of
...
(b) an airline transport pilot licence if examinations were previously written
(i) for the endorsement of a type rating, a mark of 70 per cent or higher was obtained on the examination and the type rating was issued;
...
That clearly states that the exams must have been
written for the endorsement of a type rating.
The next step is to identify which type ratings require written exams. We'll turn to CAR 421.40:
...
(3) Individual Type Rating Requirements
(a) Aeroplane - Two Crew
(i) Knowledge
An applicant for an individual aircraft type rating for aeroplanes with a minimum flight crew requirement of at least two pilots shall have completed a program of ground school instruction and flight training on the aeroplane type, and
...
Airline Transport Pilot Licence - Aeroplane
(B) in the case of the applicant who has obtained a minimum score of 70 percent (70%) on the Airline Transport Pilot Licence-Aeroplane written examinations (SAMRA and SARON) within the 24 months preceding the application for the endorsement of the rating, the written examination requirement shall be considered to have been met
....
That one requires the written exams so they could be "written for the endorsement of....."
...
(3) Individual Type Rating Requirements
...
(c) High Performance Aeroplane
(i) Knowledge
An applicant for an individual aircraft type rating for a high performance aeroplane shall have completed ground training on the aeroplane type.
....
In the case of a high performance aircraft there is no examination requirement. As a result, the SAMRA/SARON wouldn't be "written for the endorsement of the type rating" and consequently 400.03 would not apply to "lock in" the validity of the exams for life.
Re: ATPL & CARS 400.03
Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:09 am
by loopa
Thanks! This should be stickied.