A question for any ATC tower or center controllers

Does a hold clearance need to specify direction or radial or inbound track or does it need to specify all of it in a clearance?

IE ...is the following a valid clearance "GXXX cleared to xxx to hold on the inbound track efc at ----z"?

there seems to be some confusion on what needs to be included in a clearance. I think all of it needs to be included for example....

GXXX is cleared to the xxx vor to hold S IB on the 180 degree radial EFC AT ----Z.

Any ideas?

You are correct. A standard holding clx is:

454.1 A. Phraseology:
CLEARED TO THE (fix), HOLD (direction) ON (specified)
RADIAL/COURSE/INBOUND TRACK

I had mentioned that paragraph in the MANOPS to my colleague but he insists that a clearance only needs ONE of the following ...
a specified radial OR course OR inbound track and not all 3 to make a valid clearance.

Thanks for the info but he still thinks you only need one to make a valid clearance.

kevenv wrote:You are correct. A standard holding clx is:

454.1 A. Phraseology:
CLEARED TO THE (fix), HOLD (direction) ON (specified)
RADIAL/COURSE/INBOUND TRACK

RADIAL/COURSE/INBOUND TRACK is a single item. They specify the actual line of the inbound leg of the hold.

jetav8r wrote: GXXX is cleared to the xxx vor to hold S IB on the 180 degree radial EFC AT ----Z.

Specifying inbound is redundant and not required, the radial is the inbound track.

All holding clearances specify the the track that is the "inbound" leg of the hold. The 180 degree radial is South of the fix and therefore must be the inbound leg. The "INBOUND TRACK" referred to in manops is the "present track" to the holding fix. So "cleared to the XX NDB hold NORTH on INBOUND TRACK, EFC 1234z" is a valid clearance and would assume that the current position of the aircraft is somewhere to the north of the fix. The same clearance could be stated as "cleared to the XX NDB hold NORTH on 170 degree track, EFC 1234z"

I didn't quite read the original question properly I think, nor did I answer clearly. As stated by others, the specified
RADIAL/COURSE/INBOUND TRACK doesn't mean all three. One is all that is required as they all refer to the same thing, the actual line of the inbound leg of the hold.

HeadingAltitudeSpeed wrote: All holding clearances specify the the track that is the "inbound" leg of the hold. The 180 degree radial is South of the fix and therefore must be the inbound leg. The "INBOUND TRACK" referred to in manops is the "present track" to the holding fix. So "cleared to the XX NDB hold NORTH on INBOUND TRACK, EFC 1234z" is a valid clearance and would assume that the current position of the aircraft is somewhere to the north of the fix. The same clearance could be stated as "cleared to the XX NDB hold NORTH on 170 degree track, EFC 1234z"

A bit misleading in the underlined statement - hold clearances won't reference the current location of the aircraft, just where they expect the aircraft to be holding once established (ie which direction from the fix).

SAR_YQQ wrote:A bit misleading in the underlined statement - hold clearances won't reference the current location of the aircraft, just where they expect the aircraft to be holding once established (ie which direction from the fix).

Correct, the only reason the position would be to the north is because the the the specified holding track is the "inbound track". The direction stated is always the position of the inbound leg reference to the holding fix. If you are instructed to hold on your current track to the holding fix then the direction stated will always also refer to your current position from the fix.

Another way to look at it is if you are holding at a DME fix. Holding on a VOR 180 degree radial at 20 DME. You have two options, hold NORTH or SOUTH, this is when the direction is critical. In most other holding clearances the direction only serves to confirm the first part. You couldn't hold NORTH on the 180 degree radial at the VOR. The radial is south of the fix and is your inbound leg.

FWIW, 7000 hours in and every hold clearance I've been given has either been "Hold as published" or "Hold Southwest (or whatever), inbound on the localizer".

Go Guns wrote: "Hold as published" or "Hold Southwest (or whatever), inbound on the localizer".

Too true. In some cases I have had to suggest what hold I wanted and ATC has pretty much said "Hold as requested".

I'll assume the OP went here http://www.tc.gc.ca/media/documents/ca- ... 14371e.pdf before asking.....

Radial = VOR hold

Course = RNAV fix or waypoint

Inbound track = NDB

A hold can be anywhere - not just relative to the position when the clearance was issued. If it isn't "standard" it's "non-standard". If a detailed holding clearance is issued just hold where instructed.

SAR_YQQ wrote:

Go Guns wrote: "Hold as published" or "Hold Southwest (or whatever), inbound on the localizer".

Too true. In some cases I have had to suggest what hold I wanted and ATC has pretty much said "Hold as requested".

I would also add I always ask for 10 mile legs. It sure makes the math easy

The FTU fantasy land that is IFR flight training IMO waste a lot of time on holds. Holds are a good way to practice intercept/tracking skills and situational awareness but all the obsessing about whether you are within + - 5 deg of the "right" sector and elaborate formulas for calculating the outbound heading and timing have pretty much no relation to how holds are flown in the real world.

As for the approved "readback" when I was training and I got a hold I did not want I told the student to read back everything except the EFC. When terminal asked if we had understood the EFC I would take over the radio and say GXXX understand EFC is at XXXX zulu or 200 dollars (or what ever the hold would cost my student)

The following happened last week. A brit military flight inbound to CYHZ from the east asks to hold to await better weather:

Me: RRR is cleared to the YHZ VOR via direct, maintain FL280, hold east on your current I/B radial, legs your discretion, EFC XXXX.

A/C reads it back, I tell him to let me know what the I/B radial is. A/C rogers me. A few minutes later, I ask what his I/B radial is. The exchange continues:

Me: RRR what will be your I/B radial for the hold?
RRR: The 270
Me: You mean the 090?
RRR: negative, it's the 270.
Me: So you want to hold WEST of the VOR I/B on the 270 radial?
RRR: Negative we will hold east of the VOR.
Me: So you will hold on the 090 radial.
RRR: Negative, we will be on the 270 radial.
Me: Wouldn't 270 be your heading to the VOR and 090 the actual radial you are holding on?
RRR: negative! (he is sounding like he's explaining something to a 4 year old at this point) We will be on the 270 inbound and the 090 outbound.

I started laughing and as I was getting a break at that moment, explained the conversation to the next controller and told him to watch out. In the end the a/c held on the 090R.

Pilots...

Controllers...

http://www.flightsimaviation.com/aviati ... art_1.html

The old "to/from" dilemma - technically he wasn't wrong, just not speaking "canajun" perhaps.

Makes you wonder how they find the airports they are flying to sometimes.

You hear alot of that stuff around Oshkosh. It is fun to listen to.

BUT ... NOT FUNNY !!!

RRR what will be your I/B radial for the hold

I understand your question and the intent. I would have provided you with the answer you were seeking but it would have been less confusing for all concerned (certainly the flight crew), once the initial clearance had been given and read back correctly, if your follow-up question was phrased "RRR what radial will you be holding on?" That to me makes infinitely more sense. It might sound like hair-splitting by some but removes the opportunity for confusion of the message.

Not to defend the flight crew in question but I suspect that they likely fly to many areas of the globe and receive many variations in phraseology. Outside of Canada, I certainly have received differences in phraseology that sometimes makes you pause and ask yourself what the heck the controller is asking for. In the scenario you present, I can appreciate the confusion by some folks with the apparent emphasis on I/B (inbound). Once one gets what one thinks is an understanding of the message intended, it is sometimes difficult to change that mental picture. We've all experienced that at various times I'm sure in any manner of professions or walks of life.

Perhaps yet another example of the need for us to spend a bit of time in the other's shoes particularly in an industry that relies so heavily on verbal communication and how that 7% of the message can be so easily misunderstood.

Cheers

HeadingAltitudeSpeed wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:29 pm

SAR_YQQ wrote:A bit misleading in the underlined statement - hold clearances won't reference the current location of the aircraft, just where they expect the aircraft to be holding once established (ie which direction from the fix).

Correct, the only reason the position would be to the north is because the the the specified holding track is the "inbound track". The direction stated is always the position of the inbound leg reference to the holding fix. If you are instructed to hold on your current track to the holding fix then the direction stated will always also refer to your current position from the fix.

Another way to look at it is if you are holding at a DME fix. Holding on a VOR 180 degree radial at 20 DME. You have two options, hold NORTH or SOUTH, this is when the direction is critical. In most other holding clearances the direction only serves to confirm the first part. You couldn't hold NORTH on the 180 degree radial at the VOR. The radial is south of the fix and is your inbound leg.

I know this post is very old, but I am confused. How can you Hold NORTH on a 180 Radial. I only see one option. South. I see how you would hold east or west on the 180 radial. A right turn would be holding east...

Maybe someone can draw and post an image how it would look like Holding North on the 180 Radial?

aholenstein wrote: ↑Sun Nov 10, 2024 10:15 am

HeadingAltitudeSpeed wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:29 pm

SAR_YQQ wrote:A bit misleading in the underlined statement - hold clearances won't reference the current location of the aircraft, just where they expect the aircraft to be holding once established (ie which direction from the fix).

Correct, the only reason the position would be to the north is because the the the specified holding track is the "inbound track". The direction stated is always the position of the inbound leg reference to the holding fix. If you are instructed to hold on your current track to the holding fix then the direction stated will always also refer to your current position from the fix.

Another way to look at it is if you are holding at a DME fix. Holding on a VOR 180 degree radial at 20 DME. You have two options, hold NORTH or SOUTH, this is when the direction is critical. In most other holding clearances the direction only serves to confirm the first part. You couldn't hold NORTH on the 180 degree radial at the VOR. The radial is south of the fix and is your inbound leg.

I know this post is very old, but I am confused. How can you Hold NORTH on a 180 Radial. I only see one option. South. I see how you would hold east or west on the 180 radial. A right turn would be holding east...

Maybe someone can draw and post an image how it would look like Holding North on the 180 Radial?

Been awhile, but if Im understanding this correctly, 20 DME is now the holding point fix, and so you would be holding on the 180 radial, (20 DME south of the VOR) and north of that distance marker. Fly to 20 DME on the 180 radial, then commence hold to the north.

Okay, took me a while to visualize it, but yea, now that makes sense if you are holding a distance away from the fix....

Cheers

aholenstein wrote: ↑Tue Nov 12, 2024 11:06 am Okay, took me a while to visualize it, but yea, now that makes sense if you are holding a distance away from the fix....

Cheers

The fix is the 20 DME point south of the VOR. You will hold either north or south of that point.