Instrument time
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
Instrument time
What do all of you log as instrument time... From everything I figure and understand, if you are operating under IFR rules then that can be logged as Instrument regardless of the meteorological conditions. Obviously if you cancel early, your not going to log the entire flight. Ive heard the argument that that it is specifically the duration in IMC and that if employers see a resume with more "Instrument" than a minimal percentage of their total time then they discount it. Does anybody actually keep track of the time they are in cloud...
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Right Seat Captain
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I know this topic is going to open a whole can of worms...but I'll just answer your question straight up until the worms are unleashed.
Personally, when I file IFR, if in VFR conditions, I log the time under the 'Simulated' column in my log book (Not SimulaTOR, sometimes called 'hood'). If I fly through IMC, I'll log the time under the 'Actual' column (Some logbooks say IMC instead). Now it's not like I record the time everytime I enter a cloud and keep track of it to the minute. When on the ground I figure a rough estimate of what fraction of the time I was in IMC, and in VMC and quickly figure the time that way. I don't just calculate that time for some future job, but also for myself. I can look back and see what I've actually done.
If I'm not filed IFR, I will not log instrument time unless I've got a qualified person that can instruct instruments sitting next to me. Even though filed IFR and in VMC, you're still keeping more of an eye outside for traffic, I figure it can still count as simulated IFR, since IFR isn't just about the instruments, it's about the system, like ATC, and following clearances.
I do however keep track of the instrument instruction that I do, in a separate column. The ONLY reason is that according to the cars, instrument instruction can count towards your 6-6-6 currency. However I never total it, so that if I doubted my currency, I'd just go back exactly 6 months and start totaling from there until I got my 6 hours and 6 approaches.
Anyways, that's my method, and I'm sticking to it. But I'm sure you'll find many others here, and some that will complain about the whole counting IMC time (with good reason too)
Personally, when I file IFR, if in VFR conditions, I log the time under the 'Simulated' column in my log book (Not SimulaTOR, sometimes called 'hood'). If I fly through IMC, I'll log the time under the 'Actual' column (Some logbooks say IMC instead). Now it's not like I record the time everytime I enter a cloud and keep track of it to the minute. When on the ground I figure a rough estimate of what fraction of the time I was in IMC, and in VMC and quickly figure the time that way. I don't just calculate that time for some future job, but also for myself. I can look back and see what I've actually done.
If I'm not filed IFR, I will not log instrument time unless I've got a qualified person that can instruct instruments sitting next to me. Even though filed IFR and in VMC, you're still keeping more of an eye outside for traffic, I figure it can still count as simulated IFR, since IFR isn't just about the instruments, it's about the system, like ATC, and following clearances.
I do however keep track of the instrument instruction that I do, in a separate column. The ONLY reason is that according to the cars, instrument instruction can count towards your 6-6-6 currency. However I never total it, so that if I doubted my currency, I'd just go back exactly 6 months and start totaling from there until I got my 6 hours and 6 approaches.
Anyways, that's my method, and I'm sticking to it. But I'm sure you'll find many others here, and some that will complain about the whole counting IMC time (with good reason too)
I log actual IMC only.
We file IFR 99% of the time, but living in Alberta we can go weeks of IFR-filed flying without seeing a single cloud. Because of this I 'guestimate' after every flight how much time I spent in cloud...and that's the time I log as IFR time. I also log the IFR approaches I fly.
I know it's not that 'scientific', but my IFR time is around 10% of my total time and that seems to be the norm amongst all the pilots I know.
At the end of the day nobody will question your IFR time if it's 'normal'. If you show-up for an interview with 1,500h and 1,255h IFR because you've been logging IFR-filed trips as IFR time, the CP will start questioning you...not exactly what U want in an interview!! Also, you won't impress anyone by having loads of IFR time!
1. You only need 75h IFR for your ATPL (25h of that can be Sim)
2. You only need a handfull of IFR time to satisfy an average CP in an interview.
Bottom line: Logging IFR time should be the least of your worries!
G
We file IFR 99% of the time, but living in Alberta we can go weeks of IFR-filed flying without seeing a single cloud. Because of this I 'guestimate' after every flight how much time I spent in cloud...and that's the time I log as IFR time. I also log the IFR approaches I fly.
I know it's not that 'scientific', but my IFR time is around 10% of my total time and that seems to be the norm amongst all the pilots I know.
At the end of the day nobody will question your IFR time if it's 'normal'. If you show-up for an interview with 1,500h and 1,255h IFR because you've been logging IFR-filed trips as IFR time, the CP will start questioning you...not exactly what U want in an interview!! Also, you won't impress anyone by having loads of IFR time!
1. You only need 75h IFR for your ATPL (25h of that can be Sim)
2. You only need a handfull of IFR time to satisfy an average CP in an interview.
Bottom line: Logging IFR time should be the least of your worries!
G
"Slow and steady wins the race"
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TopperHarley
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The 75 hr requirement includes hood time, and time spent while filed IFR, correct? ie) it's not 75 hours actual IMC, is it?greenwich wrote: 1. You only need 75h IFR for your ATPL (25h of that can be Sim)
"Never travel faster than your guardian angel can fly." - Mother Theresa
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Right Seat Captain
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Ah, instrument time ... last April, we were doing an airshow at NAS Meridian, Mississippi. One of the performers had slipped the announcer a CD with obscene lyrics on it, and this navy guy in a white uniform with a lot of gold bars on his shoulders was driving around, talking to performers about it.
He asked me, "Did you play any music during your performance?"
I replied, "No sir, I was too busy flying".
Of course, driving a bus with wings, you are rarely too busy flying. I recommend an Alto Sax for the cockpit. That way you can log as much instrument time as you wish. You can quiet the whinings of your co-joe by threatening to take up the bagpipe.
The bagpipe is the most egalitarian of all instruments, because it doesn't matter how long you've been playing, it pretty much sounds the same.
He asked me, "Did you play any music during your performance?"
I replied, "No sir, I was too busy flying".
Of course, driving a bus with wings, you are rarely too busy flying. I recommend an Alto Sax for the cockpit. That way you can log as much instrument time as you wish. You can quiet the whinings of your co-joe by threatening to take up the bagpipe.
The bagpipe is the most egalitarian of all instruments, because it doesn't matter how long you've been playing, it pretty much sounds the same.
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tripleseven
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I agree with Greenwich, by logging actual time in cloud. At the end of the day, when I'm filling in my logbook, I just take a reasonable guess at how much time I spent in cloud. If we even punched though a cloud on a leg, I automatically log a 0.1. If it was hard IFR all day, I log just about all of the air time. Normally, if it's cloudy, I'll log about a 0.5 per leg. If we do any portion of an approach, I log it as an approach (vectoring not included.)
Remember, actuall IFR time is time spent manipulating the controls and navigating of an airplane solely with reference to to instruments. If it is clear as a bell out, your're doing neither. Having said that, I believe you can log actual IFR time when it is dark out, no ground lights and an overcast; ie, a black hole. (And I have logged that as IFR).
I know a guy who used the 10% rule of thumb to catch up on his un-logged IFR time before a big interview, and he got busted for having like 400 hours added on one page. I don't recommend you do that just to make up the 10%.
Remember, actuall IFR time is time spent manipulating the controls and navigating of an airplane solely with reference to to instruments. If it is clear as a bell out, your're doing neither. Having said that, I believe you can log actual IFR time when it is dark out, no ground lights and an overcast; ie, a black hole. (And I have logged that as IFR).
I know a guy who used the 10% rule of thumb to catch up on his un-logged IFR time before a big interview, and he got busted for having like 400 hours added on one page. I don't recommend you do that just to make up the 10%.
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Right Seat Captain
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Although I agree with your definition of Actual IFR, it isn't specifically said anywhere. So there's no right or wrong way to do it, just what you consider is the best, and most accurate way. And I suppose at the end of the day, it only matters what the CP interviewing you thinks is the best way.tripleseven wrote: Remember, actuall IFR time is time spent manipulating the controls and navigating of an airplane solely with reference to to instruments. If it is clear as a bell out, your're doing neither. Having said that, I believe you can log actual IFR time when it is dark out, no ground lights and an overcast; ie, a black hole. (And I have logged that as IFR).
So what about when the autopilot is doing the work (I'm just being devil's advocate here)? This subject has been flogged to death on the forum before - and I think that the answer most people came up with was that there seems to be no correct answer.tripleseven wrote:
Remember, actuall IFR time is time spent manipulating the controls and navigating of an airplane solely with reference to to instruments. .
Myself, I log actual whenever I'm flying under conditions that aren't VFR - and night VFR over non-lit areas(in my mind it should be considered IMC anyways...). It's unfortunate that TC won't recognize that anytime you're on an IFR plan, you're flying with reference to the instruments, and should be able to log accordingly. I know lots of guys that have put instrument time in the "simulated" column when IFR but not IMC - but TC tore them a new one when it came time for the ATP application.
I agree with RSC - do whatever floats your boat, but be ready to butt heads with TC if you're applying for your ATP with the bare minimum amounts - they'll contest you on some of your time I'm sure.
Just a question can you log the whole trip as x-country when you file IFR or just the portion that is not actual? I've heard a few different responses on this question.
"Hey there's a plane! And where there's a plane, there's a pilot. And where there's a pilot there's a bar!"
Cross country is cross country, whether you can see what's below you or not. It's defined somewhere as "using navigation skills during flight."Quagmire wrote:Just a question can you log the whole trip as x-country when you file IFR or just the portion that is not actual? I've heard a few different responses on this question.
Guess we posted at the same time, there Pugster.
Interesting comment - I got my logbook looked at with a fine-toothed comb when I applied for my ATP and had just done a whole whack of IFR cross country... I logged the actual as actual, and the air time as cross country. TC didn't seem to mind a bit (I needed some of those XC hours) - but then, my logbook was in pretty good order.
BUT... just thinking here...
When you do your Instrument Rating, you need an IFR cross country. THat needs to be logged as XC time, of course. So therefore - even if you are IMC the whole time - it still is cross country.
So I think I'm right .
Interesting comment - I got my logbook looked at with a fine-toothed comb when I applied for my ATP and had just done a whole whack of IFR cross country... I logged the actual as actual, and the air time as cross country. TC didn't seem to mind a bit (I needed some of those XC hours) - but then, my logbook was in pretty good order.
BUT... just thinking here...
When you do your Instrument Rating, you need an IFR cross country. THat needs to be logged as XC time, of course. So therefore - even if you are IMC the whole time - it still is cross country.
So I think I'm right .
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bizjet_mania
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Jaques Strappe
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Cat Driver
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Wow, this argument shows just how idiotic the whole system has become.
When you get an instrument rating it allows you to legally file an IFR flight plan and then fly the flight planned route, and you can continue on that route even if you lose sight of the ground due to weather or darkness preventing you from seeing a natural horizon.
Flying with reference to instruments only is therefore a manditory skill.
If you need to hand wring about what you are doing then there has to be something wrong..
...It is easier and far more accurate to fly an aircraft by reference to instruments only than looking outside.
The simple answer should be were you flying under the instrument rules or under visual rules.
Cat.
When you get an instrument rating it allows you to legally file an IFR flight plan and then fly the flight planned route, and you can continue on that route even if you lose sight of the ground due to weather or darkness preventing you from seeing a natural horizon.
Flying with reference to instruments only is therefore a manditory skill.
If you need to hand wring about what you are doing then there has to be something wrong..
...It is easier and far more accurate to fly an aircraft by reference to instruments only than looking outside.
The simple answer should be were you flying under the instrument rules or under visual rules.
Cat.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Cat's right. IFR is instrument flight rules: different rules from VFR; different procedures, approaches, etc. Log the whole bloody thing, even if you can see the ground.
If you file IFR, you are IFR. In fact, if you have a new rating, its a great idea to file in good conditions every chance you can to get comfortable and more used to the whole IFR process. The planning, the filing, the alternate rules, routing, airways, VNAV, RNAV, GPS approaches, w/x reports, STARs, SIDs, you name it. Don't accept visual approaches unless ATC begs, and "log the whole bloody thing." There's way more to IFR than just following the instruments.........
"You are cleared to the XXX airport for successive approaches, contact XXX approach on 124.65." Are you IFR??? G*****n right.
The alto sax comment made me laugh, and makes as much sense as splitting up one lousy hour into different increments!
Also, every time you leave the circuit, you are cross-country. And don't forget that if you are on the west coast, it is usually mountain time too!
If you file IFR, you are IFR. In fact, if you have a new rating, its a great idea to file in good conditions every chance you can to get comfortable and more used to the whole IFR process. The planning, the filing, the alternate rules, routing, airways, VNAV, RNAV, GPS approaches, w/x reports, STARs, SIDs, you name it. Don't accept visual approaches unless ATC begs, and "log the whole bloody thing." There's way more to IFR than just following the instruments.........
"You are cleared to the XXX airport for successive approaches, contact XXX approach on 124.65." Are you IFR??? G*****n right.
The alto sax comment made me laugh, and makes as much sense as splitting up one lousy hour into different increments!
Also, every time you leave the circuit, you are cross-country. And don't forget that if you are on the west coast, it is usually mountain time too!
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
I have a slight twist to what's been said already.
If you're up at FL270 and ontop of a layer basking in the sun and blue sky for your entire enroute portion I still log this as actual. You don't have reference to the ground and therefore can't be legally VFR. Thus logging IFR until you break out the bottoms.
If you're up at FL270 and ontop of a layer basking in the sun and blue sky for your entire enroute portion I still log this as actual. You don't have reference to the ground and therefore can't be legally VFR. Thus logging IFR until you break out the bottoms.
