M1 AME or Apprentice

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NeverBlue
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Re: M1 AME or Apprentice

Post by NeverBlue »

here's from CAR 571.11 6)

(6) If a maintenance release is signed by a person in respect of work performed by another person, the person signing the maintenance release must personally observe the work to the extent necessary to ensure that it is performed in accordance with the requirements of any applicable standards of airworthiness and, specifically, the requirements of sections 571.02 and 571.10.
(amended 2000/12/01; previous version)
Totally agree with you rb...but the point from the beginning was about the cost of employing an apprentice as opposed to an AME.
Yes everybodys extent is different but the person signing must personally observe the work. After that it becomes a question of the company"s operating procedures and what their own rules are.

This is why it costs more...that's it...that's the point I was trying to make.
In fairness I have experience with apprentices in another industry and I believe the blame game and lack of responsibility is a widespread phenomenon not unique to the AME.
...again...totally agree with you and that's what I've been trying to say in these threads as well...it's definately not unique to Aviation.

I believe part of the problem lies with the existing AMEs that currently have no time at all for apprentices. Their preconceived notions allow them to make incorrect judgments about the apprentices entering the industry today.
My responsibility is to ME and MY well being with regards to liability and workplace stress and I could care less if some punk ass can't figure out how to use a tire gauge after he's been in school.
...and that is the kind of attitude that helps no one.

If I didn't have the mentorship I had when I entered I'm sure things wouldn't have worked out the same...but someone decided to invest in me...because they loved the industry that made them who they were and they decided to return the favour.
In my opinion this is a fundamental responsibility of all AMEs...but some don't agree

I have benefited greatly in my career from this investment and no matter how many times Pat Richard tells me that I'm not happy or that my job is not rewarding or it couldn't possibly be as good as I say and I must be lying my mind won't change.
I like my career choice, I love my job and I am happy going to work everyday...and I make good money

as for the MNR link...it was the only "Government page" I could find with a description of an Aviation apprentice...and therefore it is "official" and of "meaning"
After graduation one must secure work in the Aviation Maintenance Industry to complete an apprenticeship period of on-the-job training under the supervision of a licensed AME. The apprenticeship program can last up to four years.

Oh...btw Pat Richard
Here's a link to a story of 'Heavy Equipment Mechanics' locked out of work because they made too much money. Eventually Caterpillar closed the plant down and shipped 750 jobs south of the boarder. Cat made billions last year and that's how they treated their employees...

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/canada ... 43684.html
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Pat Richard
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Re: M1 AME or Apprentice

Post by Pat Richard »

tell them to apply here

http://www.jobhost.org/jobs/viewjob/hea ... 29d16ed7ce

Notice all the listings on the right column.

Train builders...wasn't I referencing the oil/gas industry???
You provide an example of one instance of layoff in another trade, bravo. Would you like me to go on mention all the aviation companies that have fucked their employees over and continue(air canada/aveos)to do so?

Where's the comparison I asked for or the ratio reference?

Ha ha ha, so now my attitude is the problem when it comes to not wanting to deal with apprentices... You really don't know what avenue to turn down when it comes to responding to me, huh?

Oh yeah, thought this might help you

BOARDER - A boarder may be a person who:

snowboards
skateboards
bodyboards
surfs
stays at a boarding house
attends a boarding school

BORDER - it's that line between countries.

Another one the now generation is always screwing up - looser when they want LOSER.
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NeverBlue
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Re: M1 AME or Apprentice

Post by NeverBlue »

Border...that is :oops:
Train builders...wasn't I referencing the oil/gas industry???
...I never saw any reference to oil/gas...just heavy equipment
Ha ha ha, so now my attitude is the problem when it comes to not wanting to deal with apprentices... You really don't know what avenue to turn down when it comes to responding to me, huh?
..no I don't...you keep jumping around from "no jobs" to "nobody wants the jobs"...to "I don't care about anyone but myself"
Where's the comparison I asked for or the ratio reference?

Like I answer to you...keep waiting ...I have better things to do..."LOOSER"
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rubberboot
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Re: M1 AME or Apprentice

Post by rubberboot »

Totally agree with you rb...but the point from the beginning was about the cost of employing an apprentice as opposed to an AME.
Yes everybodys extent is different but the person signing must personally observe the work. After that it becomes a question of the company"s operating procedures and what their own rules are.
Sure, you must observe the work. The important part of that reg is the "extent". Are you going to stand over his shoulder and watch him do the work? Not likely. What will happen is you will make yourself available to the apprenti, and check up on them when they do the critical stuff. That is how the 1 licence guy, 4-5 apprentice thing works. You have good apprenti, less stress. Bad apprenti, less hair.. You pray for the good apprentices.

As for cost, the scenario above is a little extreme - 1 mech, 5 app's. So please help me with the math using the following and it is my opinion only -
1 senior mech & 2 app's (company A) vs 1 senior mech & 2 junior mech (company B)
wages - $35/hr senior mech, $25/hr junior mech, $15/hr apprentice

2 customers bring there identical aircraft in to be serviced, 1 by company A and 1 by company B. Both charge $65 per/hour. The total work package takes 60man/hrs to complete (total time frame for the work is 20hrs), total cost to customer is $3900

company A - labour $1300
company B - labour $1700

I didn't include other costs like insurance, building maintenance, etc. Just rough labour costs. To me, it looks like Apprentices are cheaper. Is my math out to lunch? That is with "direct supervision" on the apprenti.

Respectfully,
r/b
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Pat Richard
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Re: M1 AME or Apprentice

Post by Pat Richard »

Oh man, so now Im a dancer....
no I don't...you keep jumping around from "no jobs" to "nobody wants the jobs"...to "I don't care about anyone but myself
I really don't know where the difficulty is in understanding what I've been posting for years, so I'll to help you here. "Companies want experienced guys for cheap, experienced guys don't want to work for cheap companies." There is almost always jobs being posted and reposted because there is apparently little interest from qualified candidates. This, in a recession. Are you going to argue differently to that also?? Why do you think they can't find qualified guys if this business is awesome?? It should sell itself, right?? But hold on, maybe it is..... :lol:

As for answering to me, I don't really care, but I do know you won't because you have nothing to back up your mouth.

Last I checked Ft Mac was in the patch. Wanna link to a map?

For those curious, check the other thread, that's where it is mentioned, not here.

You are one of the dizziest mouthfoamers I've seen on here NB, and I think Im getting off the this merry go round before I hurl.
You want to argue, but you are mostly reaching for straws, and running/changing direction when asked cough up facts, so there's really no point.

Enjoy the stage.



Pat
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ottopilot
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Re: M1 AME or Apprentice

Post by ottopilot »

Familiar....

In my case being familiar is more about being familiar with the apprentices ability to find the correct info and complete a task, ask the right questions and knows when to ask for help. ANy task that calls for disassembly, I will always have a look at prior to close up. I'm a big supporter of teaching apprentices and once you INVEST the time into them they are very valuable assets. I can list 10 senior apprentices 4+ years who I would take over many engineers I have worked with. Training is an investment but only if your company can retain the apprentices. I feel proud to have taught many apprentices and showed them the things I have learned and I hope they do the same.

Hiring engineers is hard depending on what area of the country you are in and as stated in some cases it does work...
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hoptwoit
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Re: M1 AME or Apprentice

Post by hoptwoit »

NeverBlue wrote:If I didn't have the mentorship I had when I entered I'm sure things wouldn't have worked out the same...but someone decided to invest in me...because they loved the industry that made them who they were and they decided to return the favour.
In my opinion this is a fundamental responsibility of all AMEs...but some don't agree
No No No No No No No No No!!!!!!!!!
Aviation is a job it is not who you are or make you who you are.
If it does get a good lawyer, you will need him for the divorce.
People that define themselves by their job are a festering sore in the workplace. While not unique to aviation, the industry seems to have more than it fair share of you. You need to live outside the workplace.

For the record.
I am a Husband.
I am a father.
I am an AME. I work to provide for my family. I have taken lower wage positions so I could be home every night to see the first steps, the first tooth that fell out and Fix the car that wont start for my wife and the toilet that won't flush.
This is my definition off responsibility.
Do yourself a favour and find yourself outside of aviation. People like yourself who do not understand this comment are the reason this industry is in the state it is in and why guys like Pat Richard are as indelicate as they are.
Think about that that long and hard before you start calling people names Neverblew.
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Pat Richard
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Re: M1 AME or Apprentice

Post by Pat Richard »

Beautiful, just beautiful, especially the last bit.

Indelicate, I like that.
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Last edited by Pat Richard on Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
rubberboot
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Re: M1 AME or Apprentice

Post by rubberboot »

I have taken lower wage positions so I could be home every night
Done the same. Best move in aviation I ever did. Missed way too much doing shift work. :smt023



r/b
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Injun
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Re: M1 AME or Apprentice

Post by Injun »

Here's a good one:


Job Description:
We are looking for 3 apprentice AME's. The positions will be at our facilities in someplace, Northern Awesomeville.

The positions will be full time contract.

Please reply with a resume and college transcript if you are holding less than two years aviation experience. Please include references.

The positions will start ASAP. Shift work and weekend work will be required.

Thank you to all that apply, however only chosen applicants will be contacted for an interview.

Salary:$Will be Discussed

I started this thread and it ended nicely, however after reading this I couldn't help myself. It may or may not be from this website.

I love the "contract", "shift and weekend work", "less than 2 yrs experience".

Have I proven my point? Or am I crazy :rolleyes:

Injun
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Bug_Stomper_01
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Re: M1 AME or Apprentice

Post by Bug_Stomper_01 »

Injun wrote: Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:46 am Here's a good one:


Job Description:
We are looking for 3 apprentice AME's. The positions will be at our facilities in someplace, Northern Awesomeville.

The positions will be full time contract.

Please reply with a resume and college transcript if you are holding less than two years aviation experience. Please include references.

The positions will start ASAP. Shift work and weekend work will be required.

Thank you to all that apply, however only chosen applicants will be contacted for an interview.

Salary:$Will be Discussed

I started this thread and it ended nicely, however after reading this I couldn't help myself. It may or may not be from this website.

I love the "contract", "shift and weekend work", "less than 2 yrs experience".

Have I proven my point? Or am I crazy :rolleyes:

Injun

So in short, it sucks
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