X/Wind corrections.

[Cat Driver]

I see there is an ongoing discussion on how to use the flight controls to correct for X/Winds in the flight training forum and some pilots use the crossed control side slipping method all the way in on the final approach.

If that is so efficient do they use the same method for a cross wind on cross country flights?

[iflyforpie]

Well, some of the finest pilots in the world seemed to think it was a good idea...

[Beefitarian]

Only on those flights where I want to slow down and decend in cruise.

[Meatservo]

I see there is an ongoing discussion on how to use the flight controls to correct for X/Winds in the flight training forum and some pilots use the crossed control side slipping method all the way in on the final aproach.

If that is so efficient do they use the same method for a cross wind on cross country flights?

I would correct people who do that, only I find it infinitely preferable to the current technique of approaching the runway wings-level and trying to "kick out the crab" once the main wheels have touched down.

The first method is sloppy; the second is just wrong.

[RB211]

I see there is an ongoing discussion on how to use the flight controls to correct for X/Winds in the flight training forum and some pilots use the crossed control side slipping method all the way in on the final aproach.

If that is so efficient do they use the same method for a cross wind on cross country flights?

I would correct people who do that, only I find it infinitely preferable to the current technique of approaching the runway wings-level and trying to "kick out the crab" once the main wheels have touched down.

The first method is sloppy; the second is just wrong.

Not according to Boeing. From the B777 FCTM;

Touchdown In Crab

The airplane can land using crab only (zero sideslip) up to the landing crosswind guideline speeds.

[linecrew]

I see there is an ongoing discussion on how to use the flight controls to correct for X/Winds in the flight training forum and some pilots use the crossed control side slipping method all the way in on the final aproach.

If that is so efficient do they use the same method for a cross wind on cross country flights?

I would correct people who do that, only I find it infinitely preferable to the current technique of approaching the runway wings-level and trying to "kick out the crab" once the main wheels have touched down.

The first method is sloppy; the second is just wrong.

Not according to Boeing. From the B777 FCTM;

Touchdown In Crab

The airplane can land using crab only (zero sideslip) up to the landing crosswind guideline speeds.

..then I guess you just kick out the crab once the mains are on...!

Link to youtube 777 x-wind landing

[bradley]

I see there is an ongoing discussion on how to use the flight controls to correct for X/Winds in the flight training forum and some pilots use the crossed control side slipping method all the way in on the final aproach.

What I have always been taught is to fly the bulk of the approach in a crab, then transition to a side slip (not kick out the crab) on very short final. Although some aircraft are designed to land in the crab (Ercoupe for example), and some aircraft are capable of it, I always considered it good practice to try and avoid side-loading the gear. I suppose you could do whatever you want VFR, but trying to side slip in IMC on an ILS isn't my idea of fun.

If that is so efficient do they use the same method for a cross wind on cross country flights?

No, of course not. You would never use it for wind correction on a cross country flight. A side slip is a cross controlled condition, meaning more work for the pilot and more drag (equals less range, less speed).

Just my 2 cents...

[YYZSaabGuy]

...some pilots use the crossed control side slipping method all the way in on the final aproach. If that is so efficient do they use the same method for a cross wind on cross country flights?

Of course not.......but cruise and landing are entirely different phases of flight, and techniques appropriate for one are not necessarily used in the other. Very few airplanes, as an example, cruise with a 30 degree flap setting, although that may be (depending on type) the recommended setting on final. Side-slipping on final is an equally valid approach to control for a x-wind, but not a great cruise technique.
Having said which, I've always had a personal preference for a crabbed approach on final, converting to a sideslip in the flare - just feels more comfortable. Both are valid techniques.

Edited for typo correction.

[Rockie]

I think Cat Driver is being more than a little facetious about side slipping in cruise to compensate for wind. Remember the experience level and credentials of who you're talking to.

He's making a comment on a cross wind approach technique (not landing) that is unnecessary and unconventional.

[Beefitarian]

but cruise and landing are entirely different phases of flight

What the charlston? When did you whipper snappers go and change that? Sounds like the way Huns fly. Once that tail skid is up we start setting up our approach. Of course with the Gnome rotary engine you had to, but you never flew one of those did YA?
http://www.animatedengines.com/gnome.html

That's why you're no good at flying. The training planes have spoiled you and made you all soft. Students don't need fancy gadgets like throttles and ailerons. If you learned how to warp the wing with your hips, then you'd understand crabbing.

The only fancy equipment a training plane needs is a yard stick for the instructor to whack you with when you're not using the rudder enough.

[YYZSaabGuy]

I think Cat Driver is being more than a little facetious about side slipping in cruise to compensate for wind. Remember the experience level and credentials of who you're talking to.

He's making a comment on a cross wind approach technique (not landing) that is unnecessary and unconventional.

Understood Cat was being facetious, Rockie, and I completely respect both his experience level and credentials. I just don't agree with his view (or yours, from the sound of it) that a sideslip is either unnecessary or unconventional. Both methods work and both can be used safely on approach (agree with your correction re approach, not landing). Put it down to personal preference, I guess.

[Cat Driver]

Morning people.

I am about to unhook my motor home at an RV park and head back home.....but just want to explain my comment.

Side slipping on final approach to compensate for drift caused by a X/wind is as unorthodox as side slipping to correct for drift on a X/country.

The approach should be flown by useing whatever amount of crab into wind is required to track a straight line on final approach.

Depending on the airplane being flown the change from crab correction to side slip method is performed at or after the flare.

[Rockie]

I just don't agree with his view (or yours, from the sound of it) that a sideslip is either unnecessary or unconventional.

No, you and I are on the same page. Cat (and I) are just pointing out the distinction between approach and landing. I gather from his comment that people are advocating sideslip from the time they turn final which is unnecessary and unconventional. Crosswind landing techniques should not be applied until shortly before, and in some cases immediately before landing.

Both sideslip and de-crab just before landing are approved and conventional techniques in just about every airplane (with one notable exception) I've flown including widebody transports. A combination of the two is also normal and approved. While landing with full crab is possible without breaking anything it isn't really suggested for obvious reasons except as a possible technique on very slippery runways, but then an immediate crosswind flight control correction must be applied or risk going off the side.

Nb: I see Cat has cleared up the reason for his comment as suspected.

[Meatservo]

Not according to Boeing. From the B777 FCTM;

Touchdown In Crab

The airplane can land using crab only (zero sideslip) up to the landing crosswind guideline speeds.

I recognise that technique is necessary on large, low-wing jets.(Even though it's not particularly nice-looking). Instructors and low-time pilots seem to think that they should be practicing it while they're building time on other kinds of aeroplanes. Frankly I'm getting a little jumpy after a decade or so of copilots trying to do it in a twin otter. Especially on floats.

[Colonel Sanders]

This is going to sound lame, but some airplanes you sideslip and some you don't.

This isn't a hard and fast rule - more a matter of what comes naturally.

For example, in a fabric taildragger with no flaps, you get bet I'm going to be slipping on final.

But in years of flying the C421's I can't ever remember intentionally slipping it.

I remember doing a top pass at an airshow in the L39 - it was obvious from the photo that I was using top rudder to get more bank - and a better photo - during the pass, without crossing the flight line.

A bit unusual, and I took some ribbing for it, because you normally never slip a jet.

People who only fly one type probably won't understand this, but ...

[Beefitarian]

I dunno, different planes don't fly all that different on microsoft flight sim. They even all have the same yoke.

[RB211]

Not according to Boeing. From the B777 FCTM;

Touchdown In Crab

The airplane can land using crab only (zero sideslip) up to the landing crosswind guideline speeds.

I recognise that technique is necessary on large, low-wing jets.(Even though it's not particularly nice-looking). Instructors and low-time pilots seem to think that they should be practicing it while they're building time on other kinds of aeroplanes. Frankly I'm getting a little jumpy after a decade or so of copilots trying to do it in a twin otter. Especially on floats.

I sorta figured that is where you were coming from.

As the Col says; different techniques are appropriate for different aircraft and not necessarily always the same for different situations.

The 777 FCTM discusses 3 different techniques; which one uses will depend on the prevailing conditions.

[Eric Janson]

I recognise that technique is necessary on large, low-wing jets.(Even though it's not particularly nice-looking).

No it isn't. Even the autopilot will use the rudder to eliminate most of the crab on short final during an autoland (A330/A340).

I personally keep the aircraft crabbed until 100' with the cockpit aligned with the upwind edge of the runway then use the rudder to align the aircraft with the centerline. I use a little aileron to keep wings level or slightly wing low to stop any drift. Works very nicely.

I don't like seeing crabbed landings - poor technique imho.

[Rockie]

I recognise that technique is necessary on large, low-wing jets.(Even though it's not particularly nice-looking).

The only airplane I know of where it absolutely is necessary is the B-52, but their wheel bogies are offset an equal amount so they track straight down the runway. There is no commercial transport category jet that requires it.

[Cat Driver]

A previous poster pointed out the most compelling explanation of why side slipping during the final approach is unorthodox...........try doing it on instruments in cloud during an ILS approach.

[Snowy]

A previous poster pointed out the most compelling explanation of why side slipping during the final approach is unorthodox...........try doing it on instruments in cloud during an ILS approach.

Good point...

[Shiny Side Up]

A previous poster pointed out the most compelling explanation of why side slipping during the final approach is unorthodox...........try doing it on instruments in cloud during an ILS approach.

Good point...

On the other hand though I couldn't ever imagine being in cloud doing an ILS approach in something I would normally make a slipping approach with, that is to say a Cub or something similar. After all, how many ILS approaches are there into grass runways with obstacles? Again the Colonel said it best.

This is going to sound lame, but some airplanes you sideslip and some you don't.

Do what you got to do. Was witha student the other day in a 172 and he fought the gusty crosswind with a crabbing approach for a while and just had a rough time. While he was adamant that it was the best method, I made him do a slipping one and he was "Wow you're right, that was easier." While I don't flip between as exotic of types as the Colonel on a daily basis, I regularly do between the most common trainer types. From observation, the high wing, big rudder, slab sided fuselage, little or no dihedral, types (cessnas, cubs) slip so wonderfully I almost plan to slip all the time, so its no big deal to add a bit of side slip into the forward slip when dealing with a crosswind. Now I'm not sure whether it really has anything to do with it but the low wing types, usually with more dihedral are easier to crab approach. Notably the Diamonds feel really clumsy (though that might just be me) to slip, and pointless since that tiny fuselage doesn't seem to give you a lot of drag. But then that's just me.

[Big Pistons Forever]

As was discussed in earlier posts above, the ideal x-wind landing uses crab to maintain the centerline then as the flare is started the nose is swung with rudder to align it with the runway while simultaneously the into wind wing is lowered to counteract the drift and a smooth touchdown on the up wind main gear is followed by the downwind main gear and then the nose wheel with progressively more into wind aileron applied on the landing roll as the aircraft slows. A piece of cake if you fly regularly and have some experience.

However if you are a student pilot it is not so easy. I teach low students to hold a crab until 300 feet AGL and then transition to wing down slip so that they will have the aircraft nicely stabilized when they start the flare. When they get good at that then I get them to transition to the slip at 100 feet and then when that is mastered, finally in the flare.

However at the CPL level I will not recommend anyone for the flight test who can,t hold a crab until the flare and make a nice on centerline, no drift landing, wing down landing.

[Plim Sole]

Relax.... its flying, not orbital mechanics!
Unless your aircraft manual dictates one way or the other, its optional. (Tailwheel opens up a whole new can of worms!)

The answer is whatever the individual prefers on the day.

Am I qualified to answer? I think so, I've recently instructed and owned my own Canadian Flight School.

Cat, why do you always ask these leading questions that can only end in an argument?
Instead of stating the crabbing method should be used, why don't you claim the crabbing method works best for you?

Plim

[Cat Driver]

Cat, why do you always ask these leading questions that can only end in an argument?
Instead of stating the crabbing method should be used, why don't you claim the crabbing method works best for you?

Plim

It has othing to do with what works best for me Plim.......read my original post.....

Here it is :::::::

I see there is an ongoing discussion on how to use the flight controls to correct for X/Winds in the flight training forum and some pilots use the crossed control side slipping method all the way in on the final approach.

The red highlighted part was what I was getting at and side slipping all the way in on final approach is unorthodox.......period.....