The Minister of Transport and the Foreign pilots

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Outside of any Immigration and HRSDC laws and regulations, Foreign Pilots that need to work in Canada with Temporary Work Permits need to have their foreign licences Validated by the Minister of Transport. There is a CAR (Standard) that states in detail in which situations the Minister of Transport is allowed to issue such licence validations :

421.07 Validation of Foreign Licences

(1) Issue of Foreign Licence Validation Certificate

(a) A Foreign Licence Validation Certificate shall be issued to an applicant who provides the following:

(i) a foreign licence valid under the laws of a contracting state and valid for the privileges requested; and

(ii) a letter requesting issue of the Foreign Licence Validation Certificate and specifying the purpose for which the foreign licence is to be validated.

(b) The Foreign Licence Validation Certificate shall normally be issued for a period of one year from the date of issue. A shorter period may be granted upon the applicant’s request.

(c) If the medical validity period of the licence issued by a contracting state other than Canada is longer than the ICAO standard, the validation shall be limited to Canadian airspace.

(2) Purposes For Which Foreign Licence Validation Certificates May Be Issued

(a) for the holder to undergo a flight test;

(b) for private recreational flying;

(c) for ferry of an aircraft registered in Canada to or from a foreign country;

(d) for the holder to give type rating training on an aircraft registered in Canada to the registered owner, or to Canadian flight crew employed by the registered owner;

(e) for the holder to receive training in a Canadian registered aircraft;

(f) for operation of aircraft registered in a foreign state under the operating certificate of a Canadian carrier provided that the privileges are limited to the type of aircraft being operated;

(g) for operation of Canadian aircraft on Canadian commercial air services in urgent circumstances; such as fire suppression operations, emergency agricultural and forestry aerial application, airlift in relief of domestic natural disasters, and search and rescue operations;

(h) for commercial air services operated entirely within a foreign country where pilots holding a licence from that country may have their licence validated for operation of Canadian registered aircraft in that country;

(i) for the operation of aircraft registered in Canada on lease to foreign carriers;

(j) for reasons other than those mentioned above where approval may be given if, in the opinion of the Minister, it is in the public interest and not likely to affect aviation safety.

You will notice two things. The first is that under CAR 421.07 (1) (ii) the applicant needs to submit

a letter requesting issue of the Foreign Licence Validation Certificate and specifying the purpose for which the foreign licence is to be validated.

The purpose for the said application that is refered to in CAR 421.07 (1) (ii) must be one of the purposes listed in (a) to (j) of CAR 421.07 (2) that follows.

Take a close look at reasons (a) to (j) listed in the CARs and attempt to determine which one of the purposes apply to the foreign pilots applying for Foreign Licence Validation Certificates to work at SunWing or Canjet.

I have found only one :

(j) for reasons other than those mentioned above where approval may be given if, in the opinion of the Minister, it is in the public interest and not likely to affect aviation safety

Is it me or does the Minister of Transport have a peculiar notion of what "in the public interest" stands for.

[ChallengerDan]

Try to get in touch with Denis Coderre, the transport critic from the Liberal Party. He is usually pretty vocal about these things, and he has been loudly and repeatedly complaining about Denis Lebel's behaviour in the last few months for Air Canada labour disputes and the Aveos debacle.
Send him the information, the back ground info, etc. He usually listens.

[RogerCheckCopy]

Gilles:

Here is TC's take on "public Interest":

"Public interest" - The concept of public interest has no fixed meaning in law and its scope may be broadened or narrowed according to the circumstances.

Tough to argue in court.......

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Tough to argue in court.......

I agree but it will be easy to argue on public opinion forums or in the press......

[scopiton]

you might be kidding, right ? what do you want to win on a public forum ?
pilots don't have opinion to start with; and second, the only public's opinion that counts is the wallet's.
in any case you loose.
the problem isn't where you think it is, you're focusing on the wrong cause.
with all due respect, good luck again.

[60N30W]

you might be kidding, right ? what do you want to win on a public forum ?
pilots don't have opinion to start with; and second, the only public's opinion that counts is the wallet's.
in any case you loose.
the problem isn't where you think it is, you're focusing on the wrong cause.
with all due respect, good luck again.

Care to share where the problem is? What would be the right cause?

Regards,

60N30W

[scopiton]

Quoting Gilles hudicourt

When our Air Transat colleagues were being layed-off last fall while our parent company, Group Transat,or one of its fully owned subsidiaries, was contracting flights out to Canjet which was using Foreign pilots to fly its aircraft, we, at Air Transat, felt there was a direct causal relationship between the layoffs and the hiring of the foreign pilots. Our furloughed pilots were real to us, they had names and faces. So we reacted.

stop contracting flights out to said company.
easy to say, but way harder to break a contract involving who knows how many millions. And what are the clauses and conditions of this contract? lots of money might be at stake so you don'tput a term to a contract like this easily. Feel free to elaborate on this technical aspect if you want.

saying "foreign pilots shouldn't fly C registered aircraft" is pointless, as well as sending a petition to the minister.
saying this is trying to cure the consequences instead of the origins. Above all, the poor minister didn't sign this contract between AT and Canjet, he isn't the reason why all this is happening. to him and within his agenda, it'll be business as usual.

Canjet is using regulation to its own interest, they're doing what they have the right to do, and they do what it takes to survive in this industry.

but who canjet is receiving money from ? who contracted them originally ? who is encouraging them by making business with them ?
is it necessary to say a company name ?

then who should AT's pilots challenge: the minister or their own employer ?
if you really want this to stop for real once for ever, and if you want canjet to stop operating with foreign pilots, AT ALPA has to obtain from its own employer to stop contracting them.

and THAT's where things get a little trickier for a pilot group who has a LOT to loose: pilots have a certain tendency to be a very docile workforce. some never ever said no, some have too much at stake to take this chance. and some want to protect their career, reputation, whatever is worth more than few jobs taken by foreign pilots "for as long as I keep my job I don't GARA".....in any circumstances, it's always simpler to bark at the minister than your employer.

you have a union, so use it for something else than protecting your Xmas holidays and other perks.
and that's why we come up with a situation where everybody, on and off the internet, is barking against the hiring of those foreign pilots, but is never addressing the real issue to those who sign the paycheck to canjet and take the decision to contract them.

Can be wrong, can be right, in any case that problem ain't mine: Im just sayin because 3 threads and no cause identified other than "those freakin foreign pilots flying my airplane are making me cranky" is "somewhat" embarrassing in the end.

[.......]

...

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Can be wrong, can be right, in any case that problem ain't mine: Im just sayin because 3 threads and no cause identified other than "those freakin foreign pilots flying my airplane are making me cranky" is "somewhat" embarrassing in the end.

First: CJ had about 30 foreign pilots this last winter. SW had over 200.

For the 10th time:

1) CIC regulations about reciprocal workers, call for the workers allowed into Canada as temporary workers to have a zero labour impact, meaning 1 to 1. That rule has to be respected as long as it is not changed.

2) CIC regulations also state that companies can only obtain LMO to hire foreign temporary workers outside of reciprocal clauses if they made a reasonable effort to hire or train Canadians first. Sunwing's "reasonable effort" involved requiring all applicants to be type rated and current on the 737NG. If that is accepted as a "reasonable effort", then all airlines can require the same of their applicants and hire only type rated and current foreigners instead of hiring Canadians.

3) CAR 421.07 Validation of Foreign Licences, states

(2) Purposes For Which Foreign Licence Validation Certificates May Be Issued

(a) for the holder to undergo a flight test;
(b) for private recreational flying;
(c) for ferry of an aircraft registered in Canada to or from a foreign country;
(d) for the holder to give type rating training on an aircraft registered in Canada to the registered owner, or to Canadian flight crew employed by the registered owner;
(e) for the holder to receive training in a Canadian registered aircraft;
(f) for operation of aircraft registered in a foreign state under the operating certificate of a Canadian carrier provided that the privileges are limited to the type of aircraft being operated;
(g) for operation of Canadian aircraft on Canadian commercial air services in urgent circumstances; such as fire suppression operations, emergency agricultural and forestry aerial application, airlift in relief of domestic natural disasters, and search and rescue operations;
(h) for commercial air services operated entirely within a foreign country where pilots holding a licence from that country may have their licence validated for operation of Canadian registered aircraft in that country;
(i) for the operation of aircraft registered in Canada on lease to foreign carriers;
(j) for reasons other than those mentioned above where approval may be given if, in the opinion of the Minister, it is in the public interest and not likely to affect aviation safety.

TC issues the licences to foreign Sunwing and Canjet pilots under (j) which is a highly questionable practice.....

The fact that the government does not respect and twists existing Canadian Regulations is a little more serious for protesting these practices than just

"those freakin foreign pilots flying my airplane are making me cranky"

as you claim.

Unless you are for governments that flaunt Regulations and Legislation that do not suit them.........

[Gino Under]

Scopiton

Anyone can put together the business rationale for contracting foreign or domestic type rated pilots. Most following these threads know the messy threads that is charter flying in Canada and can connect the dots. And, yes, these monkey outfits are only doing what they are legally allowed to do to make a buck within the confines of the law.

The ethical side of the argument however, seems to have eluded you.

Where there is an abundance of qualified and capable Canadian pilots, such as the case today, the Canadian government happens to be the greater party to this offence for allowing these outfits to hire foreign pilots in the first place and need to step up to their responsibility and stop it NOW!!

Quite simply put, you either back your fellow Canadian pilots, who's income and careers depend on the opportunities these vacancies represent but is being assaulted by this act of omission on the part of two government departments, or you don't.

Which is it?

Gino Under

[Localizer]

This is CANADA .. Canadian's come first in this country, not the other way around .. If Sunwing can't make a go of their business with Canadian pilots at the control's, then maybe Sunwing shouldn't be in business. The truth isn't so dark .. Sunwing can make it work .. the only difference is how much compensation the top walks home with.

[rubberboot]

(f) for operation of aircraft registered in a foreign state under the operating certificate of a Canadian carrier provided that the privileges are limited to the type of aircraft being operated;

Doesn't this one apply more to the operation SW and Canjet are doing than "j"? Are the Foreign pilots only flying the aircraft registered in there home country? If they are flying C-GXXX or C-FXXX aircraft, wouldn't that contravene the intent of the reg?

not that this helps much... probably half of their fleet is foreign registered.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

(f) for operation of aircraft registered in a foreign state under the operating certificate of a Canadian carrier provided that the privileges are limited to the type of aircraft being operated;

Doesn't this one apply more to the operation SW and Canjet are doing than "j"? Are the Foreign pilots only flying the aircraft registered in there home country? If they are flying C-GXXX or C-FXXX aircraft, wouldn't that contravene the intent of the reg?

not that this helps much... probably half of their fleet is foreign registered.

No because most of the Dry Leases are re-registered in Canada while operated by Sunwing. They are all flown by all the pilots of the fleet. Four of the dry-leases remained registered in the UK for some reason, but they were not restricted to UK licensed pilots, everyone flew them. The one aircraft that could only be flown by strictly Czech pilots was the single Wet-Leased aircraft, OK-TVT.

(f) Is used for example, if a Canadian Carrier gets a long term contract to fly for the UN in Haiti and the local regulations call for any aircraft based there more than x number of months to be registered in-country. If the Canadian carrier decides to hire a non-Canadian to fly it, that pilot's licence has to be validated by TC under f) for the aircraft is flown under a Canadian Certificate.

[mbav8r]

Canada Board Representatives Meet with Transport Minister



Canada Board President Capt. Dan Adamus and Secretary-Treasurer Capt. Georges Dawood recently met with the Honourable Denis Lebel, Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities (and Minister of the Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec) to discuss issues of importance to ALPA members.



The primary issue they raised was the usage by some air carriers of the Temporary Foreign Worker Program to augment their crew complement on a seasonal basis.



The ALPA representatives also asked the Minister to oppose Bill C-377, the legislation that would impose onerous and administratively expensive reporting requirements on labour organizations.



They also discussed several other topics, including:



· The potential impact that cuts to Transport’s funding in the government’s recent budget may have on the level of service from Transport Canada to the aviation industry;

· The Flight and Duty Time Working Group’s progress;

· ALPA’s concerns with the jumpseat issue; and

· The perennial problems in the aviation industry of excessive taxes and user fees.

[1000islander]

Minister of Transport....????.... never heard of him!!!

[RichAir]

Minicht des transporcs

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Minister of Transport....????.... never heard of him!!!

This guy!

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/minister-menu.htm

Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities and Minister of the Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec

[bigskyjoc]

Scopiton

Anyone can put together the business rationale for contracting foreign or domestic type rated pilots. Most following these threads know the messy threads that is charter flying in Canada and can connect the dots. And, yes, these monkey outfits are only doing what they are legally allowed to do to make a buck within the confines of the law.

The ethical side of the argument however, seems to have eluded you.

Where there is an abundance of qualified and capable Canadian pilots, such as the case today, the Canadian government happens to be the greater party to this offence for allowing these outfits to hire foreign pilots in the first place and need to step up to their responsibility and stop it NOW!!

Quite simply put, you either back your fellow Canadian pilots, who's income and careers depend on the opportunities these vacancies represent but is being assaulted by this act of omission on the part of two government departments, or you don't.

Which is it?

Gino Under

Monkey outfits? Well mam/sir, behind those "monkey outfits" there are a host of families, mothers, fathers, children that are trying to contribute to the advancement of Canada as a society itself not to mention the various spinoffs created. If your views are in disagreement then you are entitled to your opinion. Unless you can propose a viable solution and evaluate the various outcomes of those theories then it is in the best interest of advancing the cause by not reverting to name calling or attempting to offend. A complex issue it is but to degenerate the discussion with name calling or accusations is akin to a Doctor making a diagnosis but not offering a solution/s including side effects. Your position is valid but your approach in narrow, IMHO.

Safe flying

[Gino Under]

bigsky

When Max Ward saw the writing on the wall, he sold his airline to Canadian.
When Mr. Obadia saw the writing on the wall at Nationair, he basically disappeared with his airline.
When Angus Kennear saw the writing on the wall, he watched his airline evaporate and went to the states.
When Michel Leblanc saw Royal was in trouble, he cooked the books and sold his airline to Mr. Kennear.
When M. Leblanc saw the writing on the wall for a second time at Jetsgo, he had no one to sell it to. So it too, disappeared.

I'm well aware that the "host of families, mothers, fathers, children that are trying to contribute to the advancement of Canada as a society itself not to mention the various spinoffs created" had nothing to do with how these companies were run.

How many good people have been left behind in that carnage, and bear in mind, I haven't mentioned Crown, Worldways, Vistajet, Oddessy and a plethora of others including Zoom. See the connection with tour operators in any of this? Ever stand back and look at Transat, Canjet and Sunwing whose very existance depend on the tour operators. Try connect the dots some day and see if you can't figure out where all of this is headed.

I'm sure each of these carriers had lots of personal stories within to tell when it all came to a grinding halt. Among them divorce, bankruptcy, and personal tragedy. These good people are NOT the monkeys to which I referred so don't waste the high and mighty speach on me for I've been a victim of some of these " monkey" outfits run by entrepreneurial opportunists who have never had to deal with the lives they left behind. To this day NOT ONE has been held to account.
With the exception of Mr. Ward, these were all " monkey" outfits looking for a fast buck.

Take a closer look at SW. See any Royal, Jetsgo, C3 management connections?

Stretching inappropriate legislation to circumvent the necessity of recruiting and training Canadian pilots is disgusting and something you might expect from any " monkey" outfit looking to make a fast buck.

I may eat my words in time but I suggest we wait for the demise of SW or others to see whether they sell before their collapse or just walk away to offshore accounts. Perhaps then we can continue a discussion on the lives of the good people left behind.

Gino Under