About Getting an M License...

[christianhgross]

Hi,

I am thinking about getting my own plane. The thing is that getting somebody to do it for you is quite expensive. I have a Mechanical Engineering degree, have a tool and die makers degree and thought hey why not get an AME M license from a remote learning school? It does not appear to be difficult (granted I have an engineering degree, did tool and die making and went through these topics at the theoretical level).

Have others done this? Is it a crazy idea? I really don't want to setup shop beyond helping myself, and family members on their planes.

Comments?

Christian Gross

[tyndall]

After you complete your remote training, where will you be working to complete your four year full-time apprenticeship before being eligible to get your license?

You don't get a license from a school, you get it from Transport Canada after an apprenticeship and completing an exam (or exams depending on type of training).

[christianhgross]

Yeah I was thinking about that... And that seems difficult... I really don't want to do 4 years of apprenticeship...

Let me rephrase the question then, in America it is possible to do your own repairs, but then you need a sign off. Can this be done in Canada? BTW I live in Switzerland and most people register their planes with an N Registeration so that they can do this type of maintenance.

[christianhgross]

The reason why I am talking about Canada is because we have a house there... Forgot to define the context.

[tyndall]

If you can find an AME who is willing to sign off your work, no problem. There is also a list of elementary maintenance tasks that do not require an AME sign off, such as oil changes, tire swaps, etc..

If you don't mind your plane being restricted to Canada only, look into the Owner-Maintenance category. It lets you do all the work and sign it off yourself.

[christianhgross]

I looked into the owner maintenance and asked transport Canada, and found out that it does not allow twin engine machines. Sadly...

Are there AME's that will allow a sign off? Is this common or a rare thing? Trying to gauge...

[tyndall]

I'd say it would be very difficult. They are basically signing away their careers if something goes wrong. They'd really have to know you well and be confident of your work. I've seen people who at first looked like natural mechanics turn out to be complete morons. Only a history with someone can give you confidence. Consider that you are trying to save money by not paying him to do the work, but you want him to take all the risk.

[hangarline]

Are there AME's that will allow a sign off? Is this common or a rare thing? Trying to gauge...

This would be rare. I can only speak for myself, but i'm sure you will get other responses saying the same thing, that there is no way I would sign for someone elses work without having supervised it. And if you have not taken an AME training course and are not an apprentice, then it definetely won't happen.

[helicopterray]

Let me see, you live in Switzerland, have a house in Canada, are looking to buy a twin engine aircraft, but the maintenance is too expensive?

Sounds like a typical aircraft owner.

[christianhgross]

That's funny... It does not sound as sexy as it does. I know what you are getting at, it is not that it is too expensive. I just like to watch my nickles and dimes. I also want to do this as a hobby. I am a trained engineer, and did my tool and die making, but for most of my working career I worked in IT. I would like to get back to doing something with my hands again. As one person told me, most people buy corvettes, you buy a plane!

[christianhgross]

@hangarline

Here is a question, what if I take the course, but don't enter an apprenticeship. I do it to gain the confidence of the AME and to let them watch over me? Would that work? I know I can do the work as I have taken industrial machinery apart and assembled it. I have done precision work, even more than a plane IMO...

[crazy_aviator]

You can come over to my neck of the woods, i will let you do all your work, then, i will take it all apart to make sure it is correct, then sign it off ,,,oh, and i will charge you 80.00/hour. You get to learn and a small break in the $$ I think this is fair, as im sure you would agree that your job is important and they pay you to do things that others dont

[christianhgross]

@crazy_aviator

I think you are kind of making fun of me. I am not belittling the AME profession. Put yourself in my position. I am a mechanical engineer, and have built very complicated custom machinery by hand. I put the time in on the shop floor because I am a fourth generation engineer and my father very much believed that I should learn the shop floor.

I have zero interest in restoring a car, not much interest in rebuilding a house, but am very interested in maintaining my own plane. I have had longer discussions with various people and they all said if you have the aptitude it is a worth the effort.

[christianhgross]

BTW the way I was kind of hoping of things to happen is like when I was doing work at the tool and die shop.

The shop leader doles out tasks, and depending on your level of aptitude and skill gives you lower, or higher level tasks. You and the shop leader talk about what you are going to do, and how you will do it. Then you do the task and at intervals the shop leader comes in and verifies what you do. As the relationship grows you get more "leeway" to do more complicated tasks.

In the case of the plane it would mean working putting the plane at the shop and then working out a plane with the AME. The AME as they do their work comes over and looks at your work depending on the critical nature of the job.

I don't think that is too much to ask as that is what I am used to...

[crazy_aviator]

Apprenticeships are done in AMO s etc, they have qualified, licenced AME s overseeing your work,,they are PAID and you are paid, this is how it works. When you worked in your machinist shop im sure thats how it worked. IF you want to apprentice, im more than happy to help. You pay my wages, i teach. Other than opening and closing panels, the AME is foolish to whore out his profession and livlihood to individuals who simply wish to take advantage of the good hearted mechanic. Can you go up into the cockpit of the modern airliner and ask the co-jo to step aside as you fly the plane and ask the captain , on occasion, how your doing ? Do you go into a machinist shop and ask to "borrow" the tools, then ask the Machinist to come look at your work THEN have him certify it is okay to install on your airplane ?
Ive been there, done that, a foolish AME ! Please dont take this personally.

[christianhgross]

Here is the deal. I have ZERO problem paying for somebody to check over my work. Seriously ZERO...

Here is my problem. There is plenty of what one calls grunt work in a shop. I am sure that we agree to this. It is the grunt work that I am willing and want to take over. And in the critical work yeah I would like it if somebody looked over my shoulder.

Let's take a really simple example shall we?

Let's say front landing gear needs to be replaced. In that work I would say there is about 85% grunt work, and 15% critical work. I don't want to pay for the grunt work! Hey I am even willing to pay MORE per hour for the critical work where there is a closer checkup. Yet that is not how it works. Here is what happens and this is what I have seen in various car shops, they get some low labor rate person fix it while somebody is supposed to be looking over their shoulder. Yet we know that these days that rarely happens as there is an immense cost pressure to keep things low price. So you get a "by the book" fix, which at times makes things worse, or costs too much to fix.

In Germany they addressed this issue for cars in that they created special car shop where you can drive in, rent a work area and fix your car. It is a success because people can fix their car properly and then get a skilled individual to look over their work.

Now you may argue, oh that is a car, and this is a plane. True, but on the mainland Europe you can't just tweak, or tune a car. Your car has a technology fingerprint and if you alter that fingerprint it will show up in the car checkup. The car checkup is not some simple once look over. No they take your car, test everything and then drive it like a maniac through a course. I am not kidding, I had a sports car and did a check up with one of them and they drove it harder than I ever have.

So now getting to your example, yeah that is exactly how I expect things. Your airliner comment is not appropriate because it is a commercial venture. I am not talking commercial, I am talking private. Regarding the machine shop? Yeah that is how it happened, except I had to bring my own tools.

BTW this idea of signing off is no biggie... As an engineer we do it all the time! And I think you could agree that we have just as much problems as an AME. I took law courses to address the issue of what signing off means and what you are liable for. BTW I have a Canadian Engineering degree.

Personally I find it ridiculous that there is no provision for this in an AME. In other Canadian fields there are, eg electrician.

[iflyforpie]

AMEs can sign off work done by anyone.

But here are very few AMEs left that are willing to deal with the BS of cheapskate owners who want to borrow tools and save money working on their own airplane which takes money directly out of the pocket of AMEs. The high volume car shop analogy doesn't work.

If you want to pull panels or remove interior bits, go for it. I'm still billing out 25-30 hours for a light twin annual with snags on top.

[helicopterray]

There is no short cut to becoming an AME.
You have to do an apprenticeship. We are accountable to Transport Canada for signing off on your log book indicating you are capable of doing the very wide variety of tasks. You may not get a chance to cover all those tasks if your aircraft is the only one you do maintenance on.
You may think you are very capable because of the fields you have experience in. It may be true. We won't know until you start working as an apprentice.

[azimuthaviation]

In Germany they addressed this issue for cars in that they created special car shop where you can drive in, rent a work area and fix your car

I saw a place like that in a Stephen King movie twenty five years ago. It's not new.

[azimuthaviation]

As a guy who gets to play aircraft fixer all day, its not as fun as you think it is. Why don't you buy a horse and go play cowboy if your retirement is boring? That sounds like way more fun.

[Popol]

I know I can do the work as I have taken industrial machinery apart and assembled it. I have done precision work, even more than a plane IMO...

This is not about how much precision work you can do... If you screw up building tool ... well you do an other one and thats it.
If you screw up aircraft work... poeple might die. And that is why there is no shortcut for being an AME.

Do you have any idea about what is done on an aircraft annual???


I am all for owner maintenance but only for person that have good background in aviation maintenance...

[christianhgross]

Let me recap...

I am an engineer from a Canadian University, and I have worked extensively on the shop. So I do not consider myself some hack.

@iflyforpie: this is why there is this conflict. You are billing 25-30 hours without any reason whatsoever! Are owners cheap? Yes and no. The problem is that owners see the difference in costs 20 years ago, and now. They are not just a bit different, but worlds different. BTW borrow tools, there is a solution on the shop floor. YOU RENT IT OUT... In all of the shops I worked at you bought the essentials, and rented the more expensive stuff. And to make things simple, somebody in the shop had a handy dandy list of what they considered essentials with a direct line to snapon... Maybe a bit more communication and bit more compromise and guidance by the shop might go a long way!!!!

@helicopterarray: Thank-you I am seeing that, but wish there was a middle of the road mechanism. One where you get somebody to sign off on work. For example architects have a well working and established sign off mechanism when you want to build your own house that you designed. Remember you can't just build a building. You need an architect or civil engineer to sign off. So I wonder... Maybe I should take this up with MP.

@azimuthaviation Dude why do you think I am talking about this. Yeah I know it is not as much fun as it seems. I worked in a shop floor, hence my comment 85% grunt work, 15% critical work. Also you are insulting my intelligence! Give it up.

@Popol: How little you know about the custom machinery. Custom machinery is about automation, and letting machines do their thing. Do you know how many checks, and double checks we had to have in the machinery? Do you know how much proofing we had to do? You know those robots and industrial lines that you see, well one of those robots with a simple miscalculated swing can kill a person. Most engineers preferred designing lines that were no human contact because we did not need to do as many double checks. But when, and I was working mostly with human contact industrial lines they do come in contact with humans you better know your engineering and your shop crew! The amount of human engineering that goes into industrial production lines is staggering because we, as in the engineers, don't want humans to end up like the Terminator! BTW do you know how many lives are at stack whenever engineers design equipment? I do, and this is why I say this is not some special territory that only AME's worry about.

Now the question, "do you know what goes into an annual". Actually I could live with an annual. What I find too much is that ontop of the annual you can't do any other work. If you are doing an annual, and already doing an indepth inspection, why can't somebody do some fixes, and that would cause an automatic annual inspection? In fact if there was such a mechanism I would be all for it!

[CID]

I think this is a simple questions with a simple answer.

You likely won't be granted an AME license but it's possible to do the "grunt work" on your airplane if you can find an AME who is willing to work with you. As you build a relationship with that AME, he/she will gradually become familiar with your abilities and eventually give you greater responsibly. For the first little while I'm sure the AME will want to supervise you directly and assess every little task you perform. Eventually, if you prove to be "good" at it, you might just require a final check before sign off.

Regardless, nobody will do this for free, at least no respectable AME will unless he/she is a close friend doing you a favour so it will cost you. As you have indicated that cost isn't an issue, that's the solution.

[christianhgross]

Thank-you very much CID... That was exactly the answer I was hoping to hear.... Makes it easier to budget my expenses.

[iflyforpie]

Let me recap...

I am an engineer from a Canadian University, and I have worked extensively on the shop. So I do not consider myself some hack.

There is the problem right there and probably why no AME would be willing to let you work on your aircraft. You have a air of superiority and a sense of entitlement. Yes, academically you might have more knowledge than an AME, but not in regards to aircraft and certainly not in the ins and outs of how to do things on planes. Lots of stuff in other mechanical trades does not 'fly' so to speak on aircraft.

@iflyforpie: this is why there is this conflict. You are billing 25-30 hours without any reason whatsoever!

No, I'm biling it because I can and I will. Did you know that it costs nearly the same amount of money for a car manufacturer to produce a $20,000 compact car vs a $50,000 SUV? They actually take a loss on compact cars so they can get people loyal to the brand and lower their average fuel consumption. People are more than willing to pay the extra money for the larger vehicles.

Same goes with hotels and airline tickets. It's a concept called yield management. People who own twins have more money for airplane, insurance, and fuel so ergo they have more money for maintenance. Twins, carrying much more liability than singles with two engines, two props, movable gear, can quickly eat into profits should there be problems the shop has to fix.

Hourly rates are a bit of a misnomer and I only really apply to the stuff on top of an annual. I base my annuals on a flat rate number of hours that I adjust based on how difficult the aircraft is to work on, how much liability the aircraft has (number of engines, moving gear, etc) and how much of an asshole the owner is. The hourly rate doesn't just pay for wages, it pays for hangar, power, phone, tools. supplies, and the invariable cushion required when dealing with liability laden machines like aircraft. If a shop isnt profitable, it goes bust, plain and simple.

I base an annual on a single engined aircraft at 12 billable hours. That is what I charge my pharmacist who just phones me and says 'take care of it IFFP'. He also pays me to fly his aircraft because he doesn't have the time to.

My fire chief, who is a good friend of mine and has been building and maintaining aircraft for years, gets away with 8 hours because he does all of the grunt work, keeps his plane immaculate, and doesn't complain when I find something wrong. It took years of building a relationship to get to that point.

People who whine and complain will get billed more simply because I can. If they decide I am unfair, too bad, they can go to another shop.

There are people in this area who have to go out of province to get annuals done because they've been run out of every shop in the area.

And don't think for a second any of us are doing this to get rich. Most private annuals amount to a public service by the time you deal with all of the BS. You might wake up one day an find nobody is able to work on your aircraft.

If I were you, I'd get/build a homebuilt instead. An RV-10 is cheaper, faster, and probably safer than most legacy twins out there.