AC arbitrated agreement

[yycflyguy]

I'm curious what the general sentiment is at Chorus now that Air Canada has laid out their intentions to use multiple Tier II carriers for their feed. Is there excitement at the possibility of gaining the E175's or is there fear that there will be lost flying to other Tier II's or possibly Tier III airlines?

[061mtce]

i don't think we will see emj under air canada express brand.

Jazz will be faced up more challenge since AC can asking anyone of its regional carriers to operate mja with seat capacity not more than 76.

[truedude]

Well I can't speak for everyone on at Jazz, but I would hope anyone with good sense does not see this as a good thing--even if it does lead to more flying. I doubt we will ever see the Emb 175, but it might mean more 705's. But since the scope has been for all intensive purposes gutted, it just means we will bidding against the lowest bidder. And if this doesn't happen tomorrow, it will by the expiry of the CPA. And at that point--if not far before--management will come to us and tell us that we can't compete because we are too expensive. So in the end, it will end up being a continuous backward slide.

So as far as I am concerned, nobody wins, and everyone losses.

[061mtce]

Well I can't speak for everyone on at Jazz, but I would hope anyone with good sense does not see this as a good thing--even if it does lead to more flying. I doubt we will ever see the Emb 175, but it might mean more 705's. But since the scope has been for all intensive purposes gutted, it just means we will bidding against the lowest bidder. And if this doesn't happen tomorrow, it will by the expiry of the CPA. And at that point--if not far before--management will come to us and tell us that we can't compete because we are too expensive. So in the end, it will end up being a continuous backward slide.

So as far as I am concerned, nobody wins, and everyone losses.

very good points, i agreed with you.

[palm90]

This contract has EDITED the entire aviation industry in Canada. Air Canada was used as the benchmark for wages. From now on the game has changed for the worse and we will never get it back. This industry is the shits. EDITED

[Flaps 1]

The best part is the Harper government has now given AC the ability to farm out Canadian jobs to the US. So expect thousands to be lining up for food stamps in the near future. I wonder if the morons in Ottawa thought that one through when they were "protecting our fragile economy".

[homer85]

Very unlikely Jazz will see EMJ's as AC wants to either find a buyer for them or return them to lessor. There is a high possibility of getting more 705's at Jazz. 100/200 are obsolete and will be phased out eventually.

[tailgunner]

Just a quick correction Homer85,
I agree that any 175's will NOT go to Jazz. The top end Jazz pay is just too high for the Corp. They will be farmed out to another carrier.
The correction is this, AC owns all 60 of the Embraers. They are not leased, so they will be looking to sell if they need to reduce the fleet.
Cheers.

[Big Pistons Forever]

You just have to look at what is happening in the US to see the future of regional flying. AC wants 3 or more Tier 2 operators and they will play them off against each other in order to drive to drive down costs.

It is a race to the bottom and sadly Jazz will be the COMAIR of 2020, if not earlier. COMAIR consistently had the best regional WAWCON's and a stable and quite experienced group of pilots. Their reward ? The company is being closed down because according to the airline execs COMAIR has "excessive" payroll costs compared to other operators and their fleet is comprised of old and expensive to maintain Bombardier aircraft..............

[061mtce]

hope Jazz can learn what happened down in US and find its way out.

[teacher]

Nobody at Jazz is under any illusion that this is good for us, or anyone. In the short term it may mean more jets at Jazz but I can see us not increasing the actual number of airframes. As it applies to the higher end wages that are kept up by the lower end one we have our WACON set to those above us. The real issue will be when several other companies start bidding on regional flying with little or no benefits, no pension and little or no WACON to speak of. That will hurt us, alot. We're not allowed to diversify yet too expensive for AC. Tough place to be in.

[Mig29]

I agree with Teacher.

The positive thing is that WJR is ramping up for next summer and AC will need to fend it self from additional pressure from WJ. Therefore I would think they (AC) would try to reinforce Jazz as their regional partner (buffer) rather then tear it apart...it will only end up hurting them in the end if they do.

[YYZSaabGuy]

We're not allowed to diversify yet too expensive for AC. Tough place to be in.

I'm a bit surprised by this comment, as I didn't realize that the CPA included restrictions
on Jazz's ability to diversify its customer base. How were they able to take on
the Thomas Cook contract a little while ago, and what about the Pluna acquisition
in Uruguay? Does anyone know the details around the CPA restrictions?

[teacher]

True however:

Also, any startup in Canada will never compete in the short term against JAZZ for the network and economy of scale it provides.

2020 is a ways off and could give many companies time to get organized. Dividend aside Jazz is actually a pretty efficient operation. It can always be done cheaper but the product would suffer. If AC would rather save money over a better product like they are doing now there's nothing stopping them. You get what you pay for though.

We may be geared for expansion into larger aircraft but if AC is hell bent on doing it at the lowest bidder who's to say that any operation that can manage an OC doesn't get awarded the flying.

I'm a bit surprised by this comment, as I didn't realize that the CPA included restrictions
on Jazz's ability to diversify its customer base. How were they able to take on
the Thomas Cook contract a little while ago, and what about the Pluna acquisition
in Uruguay? Does anyone know the details around the CPA restrictions?

We are restricted in CPA type flying but not charters like TC for the Jazz charters we do now.

[YYZSaabGuy]

We are restricted in CPA type flying but not charters like TC for the Jazz charters we do now.

Got it, thanks.

[rudder]

Like any other company, Jazz must grow to absorb the increased costs of employee tenure. The problem is that Jazz is not growing. Swapping airplanes is not growth, although it will reduce unit costs. Revenues are not increasing. The only meaningful incremental revenue at Jazz in the last 5 years was derived from the TC contract and that of course is now terminated. If jazz wants a future beyond 2020 then it must come up with a plan to increase revenues. If a reliable source for that increase is not the AC CPA then Jazz had better be prepared to spread its wings and look to the many other types of commercial aviation businesses that exist in Canada and abroad.

[Hold short]

Found this article interesting considering the recent developments with scope changes, maybe chrorus will get first kick at the can?

Defunct Pluna CRJs up for sale

JULY 11, 2012

FILED UNDER  CANADAIR REGIONAL JET, FLEET UPDATE, NEWS, PLUNA, RJ900
It has been announced by the government of Uruguay, that it is planning to auction off the CRJ900s that were once operated by the county’s national airline Pluna SA. It also announced that a search is on, as an alternative option, to find a group willing to acquire the planes, hire the company’s employees and re-establish the airline.

The Uruguayan transport ministry may provide financing if jobs are saved and debts owing by the bankrupt carrier to the state are honored, according to a draft bill currently being drafted and is expected to be passed sometime this week.

Expectations are that the auction of the CRJs will be completed within sixty days.

Canadian investment group Chorus Aviation Inc. paid $15 million in 2010 for a one-third stake in the holding company that owns 75% of Pluna’s shares, with the Uruguayan government owning the remaining 25%. Pluna flew to Argentina, Brazil, Chile and Paraguay. It also operated flights to Spain and Miami through partnerships with Iberia and American Airlines.

The aircraft involved in this situation are thirteen CRJ-900LRs:

CX-CRA          MSN 15165
CX-CRB          MSN 15169
CX-CRC          MSN 15175
CX-CRD          MSN 15180
CX-CRE          MSN 15185
CX-CRF          MSN 15204
CX-CRG          MSN 15209
CX-CRH          MSN 15233
CX-CRI          MSN 15234
CX-CRK          MSN 15239
CX-CRL          MSN 15273
CX-CRM          MSN 15274
CX-CRN          MSN 15275
All are currently, as of this date, stored at Montevideo Carrasco airport in Uruguay.

Related posts:

[Fanblade]

Like any other company, Jazz must grow to absorb the increased costs of employee tenure.

Do Jazz employees have any job protection in the event of Chorus purchasing another airline and bidding on the same, or part of the work, done by Jazz now? You know like Messa has done for years.

[bandaid]

Probably a stupid question for which I already know the answer but, why would AC buy Brazilian aircraft and not purchase from a canadian company? Sorry for the thread drift. Just Pm me with your thoughts so this does not go south.

[rudder]

Do Jazz employees have any job protection in the event of Chorus purchasing another airline and bidding on the same, or part of the work, done by Jazz now? You know like Messa has done for years.

Yes, similar language as ACPA Article 1 minus the carve outs courtesy of the Stanley Decision. There is no subcontracting and acquired companies must merge pilot seniority lists with Jazz which results in a similar arrangement as has been contemplated for AC and the LCC.

Perhaps now that many of the anchors from the past seem to have played out to their logical conclusion - some of the risk, uncertainty, and messiness of what is happening in the AC family could be mitigated by developing a more open and productive relationship between the Jazz pilots and the AC pilots, particularly since it would appear that Jazz is no longer interested in external commercial initiatives and are again focused solely on opportunities within the AC commercial relationship. The perpetuation of an adversarial relationship amongst the commonly affected pilots will not yield satisfactory long term results for either group.

Start to think outside the box and you will no longer feel like you are trapped in one.

[Canoehead]

It is a race to the bottom and sadly Jazz will be the COMAIR of 2020, if not earlier. COMAIR consistently had the best regional WAWCON's and a stable and quite experienced group of pilots. Their reward ? The company is being closed down because according to the airline execs COMAIR has "excessive" payroll costs compared to other operators and their fleet is comprised of old and expensive to maintain Bombardier aircraft..............

I don't agree that "Jazz will be the Comair of 2020". It's not that simple.
One major difference is that Comair was a wholly owned subsidiary of Delta. Jazz is no longer owned at all by AC.

[Big Pistons Forever]

It is a race to the bottom and sadly Jazz will be the COMAIR of 2020, if not earlier. COMAIR consistently had the best regional WAWCON's and a stable and quite experienced group of pilots. Their reward ? The company is being closed down because according to the airline execs COMAIR has "excessive" payroll costs compared to other operators and their fleet is comprised of old and expensive to maintain Bombardier aircraft..............

I don't agree that "Jazz will be the Comair of 2020". It's not that simple.
One major difference is that Comair was a wholly owned subsidiary of Delta. Jazz is no longer owned at all by AC.

If AC doesn't renew the CPA in 2020 all of your flying goes away. It seems to me by 2020 the race to the bottom that started with the crap WAWCON's at sky regional will be a fact of life. Sadly the chance that you will be able to preserve the reasonably decent WAWCON's you have now and still keep all your AC flying seems to me to be very unlikely. For the health and welfare of every Jazz pilot, and everybody else in the industry I very much hope I am wrong but from my POV the future doesn't look great....

[rhythm101]

You just have to look at what is happening in the US to see the future of regional flying. AC wants 3 or more Tier 2 operators and they will play them off against each other in order to drive to drive down costs.

It is a race to the bottom and sadly Jazz will be the COMAIR of 2020, if not earlier. COMAIR consistently had the best regional WAWCON's and a stable and quite experienced group of pilots. Their reward ? The company is being closed down because according to the airline execs COMAIR has "excessive" payroll costs compared to other operators and their fleet is comprised of old and expensive to maintain Bombardier aircraft..............

Though I don't think they will be either, I think Jazz is closer to being the Crossair then the Comair of 2020. There was a reason Jazz is doubling the size of its SOCC in Halifax, and a reason the NS government is granting them a bunch of money to complete it. Harper cares about one thing - votes and he needs those votes in Quebec and Eastern Canada. I think the next few weeks are going to be very interesting.....

[Fanblade]

Perhaps now that many of the anchors from the past seem to have played out to their logical conclusion - some of the risk, uncertainty, and messiness of what is happening in the AC family could be mitigated by developing a more open and productive relationship between the Jazz pilots and the AC pilots, particularly since it would appear that Jazz is no longer interested in external commercial initiatives and are again focused solely on opportunities within the AC commercial relationship. The perpetuation of an adversarial relationship amongst the commonly affected pilots will not yield satisfactory long term results for either group.

Totally agree. I am just not sure ACPA isn't going to be very distracted in the near term. Besides the membership wasn't willing to stand up and defend itself let alone a common line in the sand with another group. If I were you I would be very concerned ACPA wouldn't live up to its promises through sheer membership apathy. When push comes to shove ............. the membership sits down rather than chance being shoved over.

Much like scope and pension my impression of the company webcast was that the Jazz CPA was just another target in getting AC's costs reduced.

Forgive my ignorance but what is the reference to Jan 2016 about? I thought the Jazz CPA was until 2020?????

[hithere]

The CPA is signed until 2020 however i think the rate markup that Jazz charges AC is up for review again in 2016.
What was said in the webcast about the Jazz CPA?