Looking into flight training couple questions.

[canuck2a]

Let me start off by saying that I have always wanted to be a pilot. But at this point in my life with my current career and having a young family, I realize it will be utilized for recreation and just pure enjoyment which I have no problems with at all.

Now for my question, Is it possible to obtain from the start a ppl on a tail wheel plane. First you might ask why? Well many of the places I like to visit seem to have unpaved or grass strips in the area. I do hunting and a lot of other backwoods activities and know learning on this style of aircraft would probably prove to be more useful, enjoyable to me. Plus I have always loved being challenged. I also believe that if possible obtaining all or most of my training in this style of aircraft would probably be beneficial further down the road.

I live in the Edmonton area. And all the schools I have found all teach on nose wheel, except Namao flying club does have a tail wheel. So is it even possible to do this? Does anyone know of other schools in the area that would offer this type of training in the Edmonton area. I live minutes from Cooking Lake.

Sound crazy, maybe. Just believe learning this way would not only be more cost effective in the long run, but would be a lot better form of training than getting just a few hours and a check out ride later on. Thousands of pilots back in the day learned this way is it still allowed or even possible??

Thanks

[Beefitarian]

You may be too sensible to become an employed CPL.

Yes you may still do all your private on a tail wheel. It is just rare. In part because it is arguably more difficult. As you say you typically would be better at flying a tail wheel if you did so from the start. You could possibly just be a naturally good pilot and have no problem transitioning to tail wheel but it is not likely.

You seem to have a good idea of what you want and it sounds very solid. I suggest you go for it and hope you have a great experience. I was kidding about the first statement even though sometimes it seems possible. You may manage to find a career. Sometimes it's easier if you don't have expectations that stress some of us out.

[bvanbrunt]

As previously said there is nothing in the CARs that say you can't do your PPL training on a tail dragger. The difficulty is going to find a flight school with one. There are still a few, however of the few that still do have one, it will be up to the school (and their insurance company) whether or not they will allow training for the purpose of PPL to be conducted. I would suggest finding a list of schools that are within a reasonable distance from you and then finding out which ones have tail draggers. After that just start making phone calls and ask. I suspect most will say that you have to do your training on tricycle gear first then convert, however it can't hurt to ask.

[trampbike]

Did you consider buying a tailwheel airplane and then hiring a good freelance instructor?

Sound crazy, maybe.

No. You'll never regret learning to fly on a taildragger.

[Cat Driver]

So it looks like aviation flight training has been dumbed down to the point learning on a tail wheel airplane is considered to be something that only the truly gifted can do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conventional_landing_gear

Have they changed the meaning of the word " conventional " ?

It never ceases to amaze me how low the bar is when it comes to being a flight instructor in Canada.

It is mind boggling that one can hold a class 1 flight instructors license and be to inept to teach on a simple basic conventional gear airplane.

[iflyforpie]

It's like a 'standard' transmission in a car. Try and find one these days--or somebody who can operate one.

[Tailwind W10]

I was discussing this with one of the instructors at Namao Flying Club just a week ago. The do indeed have 2 or 3 students that are about to go for their PPL check ride having flown nothing but the Citabria. Especially early on they spend a lot of time working on the grass outfield beside the runway; a lot more forgiving than the pavement. They've got both tailwheel instructors back on the schedule now, both Adam and Glen were off for weeks recently.

Gerry

[Colonel Sanders]

I am old and cranky. I do very little primary training, and only on tailwheel.

It's a quality vs quantity thing. I'd rather have one steak, than 100 hamburgers.

[Cat Driver]

Here is an interesting fact.

When I did my PPL all we had were tail wheel airplanes to train on.

The minimum time for the PPL was thirty hours and a whole lot of us did the PPL in the thirty hour minimum....so it stands to reason that with proper training by instructors who know what they are doing there should be no difference in the time it takes to complete the PPL using a tail wheel airplane or the nose wheel airplane.

[robertsailor1]

Actually if you begin on tailwheel there is no difference. As a student you simply end up learning to land and take off with a much higher sensitivity but you don't really realize that you in fact are able to keep the aircraft much straighter than a typical trike gear student, it just happens. Now I can tell you that if you had an instructor that insisted that you learn to land a trike the same as a tailwheel then there really wouldn't be much difference. Problem is that 99% of the instructors are not able to fly tail wheels so they can't judge as to what standard might be comparable.

[Colonel Sanders]

Actually if you begin on tailwheel there is no difference

Wrong. See the learning factor of Primacy in the FIG. In a tailwheel
aircraft, the student is continuously taught from day one that he cannot
simply ignore the rudder pedals, as he can (and will) in a nosewheel
trainer. It's an enormous difference.

if you had an instructor that insisted that you learn to land a trike the
same as a tailwheel then there really wouldn't be much difference

That's like saying that if pigs had wings they would be pigeons. I
suppose it might be theoretically possible, but it's practically impossible
in the real world to achieve.

Problem is that 99% of the instructors are not able to fly tail wheels

Now we are in violent agreement. Very very few instructors actually
know how to use the rudder correctly - because they were never taught
themselves, because their instructors didn't know how, either. And the
next generation of instructors won't know how to use the rudder, either.

Stick & rudder skill has been almost entirely bred out of the pilot population,
except for a few cranky, weird old diehards here and there like ..

[Cat Driver]

Rudder pedals and anti-torque pedals are to prevent or control yaw, they can also produce yaw.

The reason most pilots and instructors do not understand how to use the rudder is because they were never properly taught attitudes and movements.

As long as the training industry fails to demand that instructors understand the subject of how an airplane flys and how to fly one the profficiently, skills level of pilots will just keep going down hill.

[robertsailor1]

The point I was trying to make is that you can teach someone to fly a tail wheel aircraft in the same number of hours that it would take in a trike. For sure you will have a pilot that is very aware of the rudders and their basic skills in that department will be much higher but its not something they themselves will notice. My wife recently learned on conventional gear and when she reads these types of comments she just doesn't get it because she's got it figured out.

[Colonel Sanders]

its not something they themselves will notice

Funny you mention that. I've been doing some ab initio to a
young fellow in a BC12D Taylorcraft, which has buckets of adverse
yaw. Rudder use is not optional, but with all that wing and not
much weight things happen pretty slowly.

Tcraft was down for maintenance, so we went up in the 172. He
completely detested the big, heavy sloppy pig, which secretly amused
and pleased me. Ok, maybe not so secretly.

Another group of pilots who learn from square zero that don't
know any different are ultralight pilots. Specifically Challenger
pilots, who scare the living crap out of me. You know how they
turn a GA aircraft? They put a bootful of inside rudder in, then
apply some adverse yaw to stop the wing from dropping in the
flat turn. It's completely terrifying. Makes me gibber and point
incomprehensibly, sort of like a chimpanzee with tourette's.

[robertsailor1]

T-Cart is a FUN Aircraft to learn in. Your student is lucky that he has someone like you around who can teach him. I've only flown 2 ultralights from years ago, one a Lazair and the other(can't remember the name) had spoilerons operated with feet and rudder operated with the stick. I was lucky to get it around the curcuit and back in one piece. I have since taken lawn chairs with wings off my list.