Why Employers Don't Post Wages

[Lost Lake]

Has anyone else ever wondered why generally speaking, employers don't post wages. Is it because, they don't want the industry to know how piss poorly, or how well they pay. Maybe it would start a bidding war. Maybe, just maybe, they have a large fund to work with. I've heard of companies who have no set pay as such, but will pay whatever it takes to hire someone.

I don't know another industry that keeps its wages in such a deep mysterious shrowd.

Take for example, Perimeter. They have the balls to tell people of their paltry pay for a Metro captain. My wife is a clerk for Service Ontario and makes more than that. Now we have Orca looking for Metro captains. Wouldn't it have been an ideal time to post their wage scale. Two possibilities, they don't pay as well or they could pay so much more, but don't want to give away any extra cash if they only have to beat Perimeter by a couple of thousand to get the right guy.

Maybe the truth is, that they are too embarassed to tell everyone that the secretaries in the company make more, or they are afraid of starting a bidding war?

Opinions or answers?

[esp803]

Because an alarming number of pilots will work for free, and so they do not have to post their meager wages....

[126.7_STFU]

I agree.

My "ignorant" answer is fairly straight forward. I guess people should stop working for shit wages. Walk off your job. Got a family to feed? Work two jobs not related to aviation. Rest assured one part time job at Tim Hortons probably pays better anyway. Any takers? Don't think so.

The relationship between supply and demand is both fascinating and foolproof.

[CL30]

Do the math...

$80K which is the average for a mid sized Jet PIC in the CYYZ works out to:

Schedule = these are published as a requirement by Transport Canada but rarely adhered to as the company needs "flexibility". Therefore Transport Canada minimums of 14 days on, 3 off are used as a rule. You are EXPECTED to work without additional overtime pay, or additional compensation for statitute holidays which of course is when most charter clients want to fly. So you are "Salaried".

Based on the Transport Canada mininum you will work 21.4 periods of 17 days in a year. 3 of these are rest days so that gives you 64.2 days free from duty in a year.

Normal people get 104 days free per year.

In a normal duty day you are allowed 14 hours of "flight duty day". Even if you are on call, you should, but likely don't recieve a rest period but that said, let's just say you work just 14 hours a day.

So, 300.8 x 14 = 4211.2 hours of flight duty day can be legally assigned to a pilot in a work year. Trust me, my current job has me doing this.

I have even experienced the BS of being "reset" while on the road.

$80,000 / 4211.2 = $19/HR

A normal person works only 2088 per year based on a 8 hour work day, 5 days a week.

As a business owner in another profession, I have to pay for my equipment and employees, its the cost of doing business but in aviation, the cost of training is put on the backs of the employee in the form of reduced wages, bonds, and/or actual training loans paid by the employee.

There is a reason most of the aircraft owners drive expensive cars and own large houses.

As a "professional" you are totally guilted into giving everything for your employer, but after some serious consideration and seeing my family grow up without me, bagging groceries is starting to look really appealing. Economically speaking, I can make more money doing most other jobs without the personal sacrifices.

I have even met entry level FO's who pay upfront, yes, paid the employer money ($20K) which they get back over time at 3% interest, borrowed at 9%, just to make $35,000 per year and fly a jet. Give your heads a shake, why are we doing this?

Building hours is a crock of shit, what are you building them towards? Air Canada? The good days are done... Besides, they will just hire somebody with half your time or a great "diversity" find.

[CL30]

oh yeah, forgot to add that in any other industry, the $30K investment on any "revenue" generating source is chump change.

[Doc]

CL30, enjoyed your post. We truly are FOOLS! Seriously, some PAY for these jobs.
I learned long ago that it's Location, Location, Location.
LIFESTYLE!!!!!
I don't fly a jet. But, I get weekends off, I'm home at least 350 nights a year. Make within a 9 iron shot of the same money you do, average 3 days a week. NEVER push limits of ANY kind. Live on a lake, sail, motorcycle, and commute 12 kilometres to work! YET, some of these total twats criticize me for "flying a small airplane into shit holes all my life..."
Meanwhile, these guys have coughed up 10-20K, live out of a suitcase two weeks a month, commute in big city traffic, have personal relationships with divorce lawyers, and live in dingy "crash pads" for the PRIVILEGE of looking down their noses at me??
I'm really happy I'm nearing the end of my flying career, because this industry well and truly BLOWS GOATS!!

I see ads like that, and I know there's a long line at the door. Guys willing to sell their souls and spend daddy's money on the "dream"! It's all yours kids. Have at it.

[robertsailor1]

This is such a crazy topic..in business you get what your worth, nothing more, nothing less. If your group wants to give away your services, thats exactly what they are worth. Its a complete waste of time crying about it, flying is a low wage entry job, get used to it. The good old days are long gone and won't be coming back.

[Doc]

This is such a crazy topic..in business you get what your worth, nothing more, nothing less. If your group wants to give away your services, thats exactly what they are worth. Its a complete waste of time crying about it, flying is a low wage entry job, get used to it. The good old days are long gone and won't be coming back.

He speaks the truth. It's the fault of pilots willing to work for peanuts in the first place. Don't apply. If nobody applied, they'd have to up the ante or park their airplanes. We're our own worst enemies.

[flyingcatfish]

I just found out that the tv show Pan Am was cancelled, and I think that there will be fewer people thinking how cool it would be to be a pilot now

[Lurch]

He speaks the truth. It's the fault of pilots willing to work for peanuts in the first place. Don't apply. If nobody applied, they'd have to up the ante or park their airplanes. We're our own worst enemies.

I turned down a job a few years ago, due to unfavourable lifestyle changes, but not before I talked up the salary 20K/year, the pilot who ended up taking the job took it for the original salary offered.

If you think you are worth peanuts you will get peanuts.

People seem so excited to fly bigger/better planes they don't seem to care that they aren't being compensated properly, and this hurts all of our incomes.

Lurch

[cgzro]

I don't know another industry that keeps its wages in such a deep mysterious shrowd.

In the Engineering world its rare that the salary is posted and there is usually some give/take required after an interview or two to see where it lands. Of course for very junior or students we usually post the hourly wage.

[iflyforpie]

I don't know another industry that keeps its wages in such a deep mysterious shrowd.

In the Engineering world its rare that the salary is posted and there is usually some give/take required after an interview or two to see where it lands. Of course for very junior or students we usually post the hourly wage.

Yes, but I'm sure that you aren't talking about peanuts at that level and that wage or salary and benefits aren't the entire compensation package. It's also very unlikely that you have a parade of people behind you willing to work for less.


But I dunno. AirSprint posted a thread on its compensation package and it was well-received by all on here. There is an example of a great second job.

[Rowdy]

So.. with the latest (read: poor) contract that was forced onto the air canada pilots (by our federal government no less).. everyone everywhere else in this industry should no longer be rushing and pushing their way to get there. So lets make the industry outside of big red and meager WJ better. Simple no?

Stop accepting 'flexible schedules' with no additional pay for stats and holidays. Stop accepting overnights where you have to 1) share a room 2) pay your own meals 3) find your own way to and from said hotel. Stop working 14hr duty days 5 or 6 days a week. Stop allowing employers to take advantage by only giving you 3 off in 30 on wx days etc.

We CAN change this! Whos up for a petition to transport to change the duty and days off regs to IMPROVE safety? Thats the key word here.. its UNSAFE to work the way we do for the low wages we do. Stand up my friends!

[KK7]

I don't know another industry that keeps its wages in such a deep mysterious shrowd.

Most professional jobs don't post salaries. Most often the job ads that have salaries or wages posted are low end jobs like McDonald's, etc. Most professional industries don't post salaries because they are negotiable. Posting a salary limits yourself to a very specific candidate that falls exactly in that pay range. You end up driving away the odd amazing candidate who is worth more, or the hot rookie who has more potential than most.

Yes it's partly about choosing the lifestyle, but like most other industries you can't pick the best job for lifestyle as soon as you start off with no experience. Sometimes picking jobs is about building the right experience to eventually choose the job you want that carries the lifestyle you'd like. Too often on here I see people ask about some job choice they have, and everyone always pipes up and says it's all about choosing lifestyle. It's not that black and white. I now have the job that has the lifestyle I want. If I settled for the job with the best lifestyle from the choices I had when I was younger, I wouldn't have made it as far as I have made it today. You have to look at the big picture.

People think that aviation is unique in the way that we get hired, work our way up, and so on... Pull your heads out of the sand. Much of the rest of the world functions the same way and have the exact same problems we have in this industry. That's not to say the conditions don't need to be improved, of course we can try to make everyone's lives better. But I think the one unique thing about pilots is that collectively they think they are so different from the rest of the world, when in fact we're not that special.

Anyway, I think the way to really get ahead in this business is to develop yourself in a niche market. If you want to be an airline pilot like everyone else, nothing wrong with that, but be ready to battle it out with loads of others. Or do like Doc and many others on here, be the expert in your little corner of the industry then you're worth a lot more being able to offer something that not many others can. I think people who chose this latter path never have wage issues and live happy lives making decent money, decent schedules, all without having to worry about their seniority number and what it means for their future...

[pilotidentity]

The wages aren't posted as 95 percent of the companies that use this forum pay very low wages and have poor working conditions thus their need to advertise here. The good companies have more than enough qualified applicants.

[pilotidentity]

Doc,

I don't know you but I must say you are very lucky to have figured out that staying put at a job you enjoy is what is important.

Don't take it personally when screwed up airline types put your job down - I personally look down MY nose at those airline dudes and laugh inside at the shitty job they have, ha ha. When they tell me what plane they fly and expect a look of admiration or envy from me I feel sorry for them.

I have more than one friend that feels TRAPPED at the airlines. Tired of the job. Not what they thought it would be. They would not look down their noses at you.

To add to my thoughts on topic - not posting wages - the employer can lower the wages and working conditions if many "race to the airlines" types apply. The adds on this board are usually from the same companies looking to replace those "in the race". Why show your cards. NEXT!

[Mig29]

pilotidentity,

you are speaking the truth my friend, just remember not to generalize everyone in the same "pot".

There are guys who do quite well in their airline job and when I say "do well", I don't mean in financial terms only. I work in an airline where I see a different guy sitting beside me every other day. Some have "figured" out this game, and enjoy their life, don't chase the pay, spend time with their families, choose not to commute but live near their work and don't bother if the company calls them 10 times a day trying to offer them over time! They use their travel passes, see the world and come back ready to get back in the seat. Others are just plain miserable, and I don't know if that is the job or something at home that is making them like that. I try not to get into their personal life too much unless they want to talk about it. They complain about every little thing about the company, not realizing that they have it much better then they are able to see. They chase over time pay (taking away from their normal time off) and then complain they work too much! They rarely travel on their time off, have too many toys to pay at home and so on.... You get the point.

On the same token, you have guys who are "stuck" in some other non-airline jobs and hate every living minute of it. The work is hard, days are long and pay is nothing to brag about...and on top of it they live in some miserable "communities", if I can even call it like that...missing on many things life can offer.

Yes, Doc has it figured out, and I admire guys like him. I try to position myself in that direction even though I'm pretty junior...but it doesn't hurt to start with good planning and good habits early on

Ciao!

[flyinhigh]

Don't worry doc, your not the only 1 making a living flying the 200.

I went to the airlines and after about a month was bored, always said that the little planes is where
it's at. So 5 years later said see ya to the airline and decided to join you flying the little guys again a few days a week. Now during the week i go golfing and huntig all the while still getting paid.

Lifestyle is Everything, see ya at pik and pop.

[pilotidentity]

Mig 29,

You pegged it. It doesn't matter what you do as long as you "take time to smell the roses".

Flying two crew has everything to do with who you are sitting beside. You look at your roster a month in advance and if you know who you are flying with you know how your pairing is going to go, good times, or a good time to call in sick. If you don't know them its like going on a blind date.

Keep smiling.

[tsgas]

True happiness comes from within ourselves. People that are happy with life in general will adapt and be winners. Others are born complaining and no matter what they have it's just never good enough. Greed ,an inflated ego and jealousy takes away the fun and enjoyment.

Almost any plane can be enjoyable to fly if you have the right attitude. Life is what you make of it.

[Sam300]

I see in a recent job posting for Sky North in winnipeg they posted the salary, which for a king air gig is not too bad. I don't know anything about SkyNorth, but at least they are up front with the salary

[Rowdy]

Almost any plane can be enjoyable to fly if you have the right attitude. Life is what you make of it.

100% agree! However.. being able to make a decent living and enjoy life outside of work is quite important to many, myself included. We work to live and Not the other way around

[Doc]

I see in a recent job posting for Sky North in winnipeg they posted the salary, which for a king air gig is not too bad. I don't know anything about SkyNorth, but at least they are up front with the salary

You could do a Hell of a lot worse! A week on, a week off = lots of time to do what YOU want!

[Squid]

CL30, enjoyed your post. We truly are FOOLS! Seriously, some PAY for these jobs.
I learned long ago that it's Location, Location, Location.
LIFESTYLE!!!!!
I don't fly a jet. But, I get weekends off, I'm home at least 350 nights a year. Make within a 9 iron shot of the same money you do, average 3 days a week. NEVER push limits of ANY kind. Live on a lake, sail, motorcycle, and commute 12 kilometres to work! YET, some of these total twats criticize me for "flying a small airplane into shit holes all my life..."
Meanwhile, these guys have coughed up 10-20K, live out of a suitcase two weeks a month, commute in big city traffic, have personal relationships with divorce lawyers, and live in dingy "crash pads" for the PRIVILEGE of looking down their noses at me??
I'm really happy I'm nearing the end of my flying career, because this industry well and truly BLOWS GOATS!!

I see ads like that, and I know there's a long line at the door. Guys willing to sell their souls and spend daddy's money on the "dream"! It's all yours kids. Have at it.

If this isn't the best "my d-$k is the biggest" post ever. Congrats Doc. Grow up.

[Flap_Operator]

And for the record i can hit 160 yards with a 9 iron so salary is relative. Haha