Philippine Airlines YVR-Vegas

[altiplano]

So someone told me they bought a ticket on PAL return YVR-LAS.

I thought they must be wrong, how could an overseas carrier operate between Canada and the US.

It came up again so I looked it up on philippineairlines.com.

Sure enough there it is PRO106/107, on an A340 nonetheless. Daily service starting at about $160 one way.

Here it is on flightaware too... http://flightaware.com/live/flight/PAL106

What's up with this? I understand if it were dropping only in YVR after coming in from Manila or picking up on the way. But selling point to point? How are our governments letting this happen? Something stinks here, between WS/AC and all the US carriers I'm sure there is plenty of capacity on this sector, is PAL operating under an FAA ops certificate or something?

[Gilles Hudicourt]

This is the original CTA decision which has since been renewed.

https://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/ruling/630-a-2006

APPLICATION by Philippine Airlines, Inc. for authority to operate one additional flight per week for a total of five flights per week on the routing Manila-Vancouver-Las Vegas, with the right to exercise fifth freedom traffic rights on the additional flight between Vancouver and Las Vegas, from December 1, 2006 or such earlier date as may be granted by the Agency to March 24, 2007.

The last one I find was to expire on Oct 31 2009.

https://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/ruling/105-a-2009

How these flights continued beyond that date is a mystery to me. But I am new at this.......

[Indanao]

Caveat Emptor. You can teach a monkey to ride a bicycle. BUT, what happens if the chain comes off ?

[altiplano]

Thanks for that Gilles.

Can't believe we are offering 5th freedom rights onto an already well served route.

I see that The Philippine authorities won't grant our carrier access into MNL via STAR alliance code share, yet we are allowing them 5th freedom rights? Should be tit for tat I think... Also see mention in there of 132 seats... on an A340? Decision must have been written when PAL was using a B737 on the Manila-Vancouver run.

[ZBBYLW]

There are not many 5th freedom routes but there are some out there.

Cathay flies YVR-JFK daily on a 77W.
LAN used to fly YYZ to either JFK or EWR.
Qantas used to fly YVR-SFO on a 744.
Singapore used to fly ICN-YVR 772.

Canadian companies have had a few 5th freedom rights themselves.

AC/CP HNL-SYD, SCL-EZE
AC ZRH/LHR-DEL
CP HKG-BKK

[altiplano]

I know AC doesn't have 5th freedom on SCL/EZE anymore if they ever did, and I'm pretty sure the DEL flights were just a tech stop for the 340.

I can see giving out 5th freedom if there is a reciprocal deal with our airlines or if there is an underserved route, seems funny though to allow it otherwise...

[pelmet]

Many years ago, I did a return flight from Mirabel to JFK on a Royal Air Maroc 747SP southbound and an Aerolineas Argentinas regular 747 northbound. Of course I just thought at the time that it would be really cool to fly on a 747 and who knows, maybe someday in the future I would get to actually fly one someday. Not many folks on either flight so no surprise that they dropped the extra leg, although I believe RAM now has a direct flight on a 757. Ticket prices were cheap for the flights I took.

[ea306]

I was once told that Sunwing Vacations used to sell seats to LAS from YVR on PAL. Looked on the websites and do not see that offered anymore. Just wondering if there are any other tour companies that might be working with PAL or are they marketing it on their own now?

[ZBBYLW]

I know AC doesn't have 5th freedom on SCL/EZE anymore if they ever did

You're able to buy seats on those flights as of today... So I figured they had 5th freedom.

AC used to use ARN as a tech stop out of DEL when they did it direct. Perhaps LHR was only used to funnel PAX from all their other Canadian departure cities... Not too sure just assumed is was 5th freedom.

[TheStig]

I know AC doesn't have 5th freedom on SCL/EZE anymore if they ever did, and I'm pretty sure the DEL flights were just a tech stop for the 340.

I can see giving out 5th freedom if there is a reciprocal deal with our airlines or if there is an underserved route, seems funny though to allow it otherwise...

Yes they do, check out Flight 92 SCL-EZE. You can buy a ticket for tomorrows flight for $311. I believe this is the only remaining 5th Freedom exercised currently by AC but historically they've had a number of others as already mentioned.

5th freedom rights should be a thing of the past in a world of 8000nm range airliners but a few do still exist. Interestingly Cathay operates to JFK both direct from HKG and via YVR. Jet Airways flies to YYZ (from DEL) via BRU on Fifth freedom rights as well if I'm not mistaken.

[JZA]

In this particular case the bilateral allows PR to operate between Canada and select points in the US (they chose LAS) ... In exchange Canada's designated carrier (Canadian at the time) was given 5th freedom traffic rights between Hong Kong and Manila. At the time of the merger CP operated 4 times weekly YVR-HKG-BKK and 3 times weekly YVR-HKG-MNL. After the merger AC opted to suspend both BKK and MNL ... Though AC retains the rights. PR and CX however have continued to utilize their 5th Freedom rights.

Similarly, until Japan Airlines recent financial challenges resulted in its suspension, JAL had operated 2 weekly YVR-Mexico City with full traffic rights. This authority was a left over from when Canadian Airlines Had full traffic rights between Narita and Hong Kong.

There are many other examples...unfortunately our Canadian carriers (AC for the most part) choose not to exercise all the rights they have.

This will soon be a mute point however in the case of PR as they have chosen to suspend the YVR-LAS sector shortly....instead choosing to operate 4/week YVR-MNL and 3/week YYZ-MNL instead.

[Panama Jack]

I've done a fair bit of interesting, 5th freedom travel in the last few years, like:

Lufthansa and Air France between Bangkok and Ho Chi Minh City
Northwest Airlines between Beijing and Tokyo
Iberia between Miami and Panama City and Managua
Delta Airlines between Shanghai and Tokyo
Air Canada from Buenos Aires to Santiago de Chile
Gulf Air between Hong Kong and Bangkok
Kenya Airways between Dubai and Guangzhou (actually, my wife did the last two)

Many more out there. I remember in the 90's how Cathay Pacific has big ads in the Vancouver Sun advertising its 747 service between YVR and LAX with the headline "Why take a bus when you can take a limo?"

[bmc]

Fewer carriers take advantage of 5ths than in the past. They most often occur at the end of long haul flts and you need a fresh crew to operate the sector. In many cases, you are simply operating the wrong gauge of equipment for the sector. Furthmore, unless you are operating the sector with a minimum of daily, you are not really in the market and have to price accordingly. YVR- LAS is not a high yield route. Let PR have it. They are making money on it after you take all of the costs out associated with the flt, as well as the opportunity cost of deploying the equipment on routes that that make sense to their network.