Partial engine failure in jump plane

[2550]

[youtube]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0LPAp3n5Lcg[/youtube]

Skip to about 50 seconds in to avoid anoying skydiver chatter.

[2550]

Not often you have to deal with engine problems while someones yelling "woooohoooo!" in your ear.

[YYZSaabGuy]

Worth a look, if you haven't already. Audible RPM reduction 24 seconds after start of his takeoff roll, followed by a 180 degree "Impossible Turn" at low altitude (maybe 150 feet AGL?) with the stall horn blaring the whole time, and he greased it back onto a turf field. 47 seconds, by my count, from the start of his takeoff roll to touchdown. A textbook job by the pilot - very quick reaction time and precision maneuvering through a steep turn at low altitude - I'm not sure it could've been handled any better.

[Beefitarian]

Too many smart phones and such. Took a while to find it in a version that worked on my crappy old laptop.

Looked like the turn was 270 degrees maybe more. They seem to come all the way around to use an intersecting runway to the one they departed from.

[skydivepilot]

Excellent job! It can be very easy to get caught up and distracted wih jumpers onboard, especially students. This pilot deserves a case of beer from his passengers

[schmoo]

As a new pilot, I want to make sure I understand this incident in the proper context.

So, in this particular situation, in taking off from a large flat field, a return to the airfield is a reasonable course of action. However, if he had departed a runway, then not a reasonable course of action ?

I just want to reaffirm my belief that in 99% of cases, I'd be looking to land in a field straight ahead rather than risk a turn around.

At the end of the vid he talks about something going into the red. Oil pressure ?

[Beefitarian]

In my opinion it's not as simple as "the situation" making it reasonable to return. It was the pilots skill that allowed him to return in that situation. It's not a reasonable course of action in most cases due to a lack of skill and/or speed and/or altitude. I would be pretty cautious about turning over those trees because of my current level of skill, yet he did it in a relatively safe manner.

I believe he meant the needle on the Oil pressure guage went into the red.

[crazy_aviator]

Looks to be about a 250 degree turn with partial power ( not much) What your taught in school and what you can DO with EXPERIENCE and a calm demeanor are 2 different things!!

[2550]

Its a pretty impressive bit of flying. I dont think it would have worked with no power at all. Schmoo, yes, straight ahead would be the safe bet, particularly that low. I dont think too many people would have faulted this guy if he d just gone straight ahead to the best looking spot. But it goes to show what can be done with good practiced hands and feet. He d flown that plane quite a bit in the preceding months I bet, probably everyday and not just straight and level.

It also shows something that should practiced more along side total engine failure forced approaches: the scenario of partial failure..you ve got some power, but not much and dont know for how long. How to use it most effeciantly and safely to get back on the ground.

[Colonel Sanders]

As a new pilot, I want to make sure I understand this incident in the proper context.

So, in this particular situation, in taking off from a large flat field, a return to the airfield is a reasonable course of action. However, if he had departed a runway, then not a reasonable course of action ?

You're rather missing the point.

What this pilot did was very skilled - did you hear the stall
warning honking during the turn?

As Beef points out, the skill level of pilots varies. Jump
pilots do a lot of hands-on stick & rudder flying and as
such are much better at that sort of thing than most
private pilots.

Bob Hoover can do surface level aerobatics in a normal
category piston twin with both engines feathered. I
would not recommend that for most pilots on AvCan.

Tex Johnston rolled the Boeing 707 prototype (367-80)
at the Seattle Hydroplane races at 1500 feet. Twice.
I would not recommend that to a single four-bars in
Canada.

Once the light bulb goes on, and you realize that different
pilots are capable of different things - the airframe is rarely
the limiting factor - this will start to make sense.

Just because you and another pilot have the same piece
of paper (a blue pilot licence booklet) in your pocket does
not mean that you have the same skill level. Airplanes
cannot read, and frankly the pilot is the most important
component of the aircraft.

If this video does not convince you of that, I might
suggest watching some motorcycle racing videos. You
could put on the same leather outfit as those guys,
but you would kill yourself on the first lap. That is
because you don't have the same skill level as they
do, when it comes to operating motorized equipment.
This is not a subject change.



These people live on a different planet than the gentle,
bovine people of AvCan, who simply could not imagine
this kind of reality.

[bezerker]

... crashes 'like war zones', say police

Four motorcyclists were killed on open roads during the TT festival in crashes that resembled "war zones", Isle of Man Police have said.

Thirty-two people were also seriously injured during the festival, initial police figures show, in 92 crashes.

The fatalities among members of the public were in addition to the three competitors killed during events....

[Colonel Sanders]

I think you're making my point:

These people live on a different planet than the gentle,
bovine people of AvCan, who simply could not imagine
this kind of reality.

As Guy Martin once famously said:

The reason I do it is because if you get it wrong, it’ll kill
you… If you think it’s too dangerous then go home, cut your grass
and leave us to it

The spiritual children of Pierre Trudeau, the Liberal Party
and the CBC could not possibly fathom such a mindset.

[schmoo]

You're rather missing the point. What this pilot did was very skilled - did you hear the stall
warning honking during the turn?

I think the more experienced pilots on this forum are missing the point. When a low-time pilot asks a basic question, it would be great if they weren't made to feel like they are completly worthless. I can certainly appreciate the fact that this pilot is likely very skilled, but seeing that people on this forum constantly talk about pilots over-estimating their skills, how is someone who is learning to fly a plane supposed to ask for and receive reasonable answers to their questions ? In what way was he skilled ? Could I ever hope to be so skilled ? Do you think he switched on the fuel pump ? Did he coordinate the turn ? Slip to keep the inside wing from stalling ?

My question was an invitation for others to approach the complexity of the problem by mentioning things such as partial vs complete engine failure or the fact that the pilot had more options due to the large flat field, etc. It really achieves nothing to be told it all depends upon the skill of the pilot. That's just rhetoric that doesn't help any pilot who is still trying to figure out what skills they actually have.

I belong to other forums as well, and all too often, I have seen the more knowledgeable members belittle those who dare to pose naive questions. I though this forum would be different. I thought the inherent danger involved in flying would mean that getting anwers to your questions would be easy ~ that people would be eager to give you advice that could help you avoid killing yourself. But I think I was wrong.

One thing I have learned on this forum is that this forum is no place for new pilots. It is discouraging. I may continue to lurk here, but this certainly represents my last post.

For all those who have given me useful advice, I thank you.

[burhead1]

You're rather missing the point. What this pilot did was very skilled - did you hear the stall
warning honking during the turn?

I think the more experienced pilots on this forum are missing the point. When a low-time pilot asks a basic question, it would be great if they weren't made to feel like they are completly worthless. I can certainly appreciate the fact that this pilot is likely very skilled, but seeing that people on this forum constantly talk about pilots over-estimating their skills, how is someone who is learning to fly a plane supposed to ask for and receive reasonable answers to their questions ? In what way was he skilled ? Could I ever hope to be so skilled ? Do you think he switched on the fuel pump ? Did he coordinate the turn ? Slip to keep the inside wing from stalling ?

My question was an invitation for others to approach the complexity of the problem by mentioning things such as partial vs complete engine failure or the fact that the pilot had more options due to the large flat field, etc. It really achieves nothing to be told it all depends upon the skill of the pilot. That's just rhetoric that doesn't help any pilot who is still trying to figure out what skills they actually have.

I belong to other forums as well, and all too often, I have seen the more knowledgeable members belittle those who dare to pose naive questions. I though this forum would be different. I thought the inherent danger involved in flying would mean that getting anwers to your questions would be easy ~ that people would be eager to give you advice that could help you avoid killing yourself. But I think I was wrong.

One thing I have learned on this forum is that this forum is no place for new pilots. It is discouraging. I may continue to lurk here, but this certainly represents my last post.

For all those who have given me useful advice, I thank you.

+1

[Colonel Sanders]

advice that could help you avoid killing yourself

I'll try to keep it simple for you.

Don't ever try to do, what that very skilled pilot did, because
you will certainly kill yourself.

If you have an engine failure at 250 AGL, it's wings level, nose
down to maintain airspeed and that's that.

Do that, and you will survive. Do otherwise, and you will die.

I'm sorry if your continued survival makes you feel bad.

PS You will never fly an airplane as well as Bob Hoover
or Tex Johnston or Sean Tucker or Skip Stewart or
Freddy Cabanas or Rob Holland. Get used to it, or take
up tennis.



You will never be able to fly an airplane that skillfully,
regardless of what David Suzuki or Peter Mansbridge
told you.

Aviation isn't your fisher price playpen with the rounded
corners where everyone gets a soccer participation medal.

You screw up, you die. That's the point I was trying to
make with the Isle of Mann TT but I guess it didn't penetrate
your feelings.

[2550]

If you have an engine failure at 250 AGL, it's wings level, nose
down to maintain airspeed and that's that.

Good advice. Just imagine what we d be saying if he d stalled and died.

The stuff about skill at operating machines though...some of us are naturaly better than others. Some of us are naturaly really really good. Those Isle of Mann and Skip Stewart vids show the result of natural talent plus thousands and thousands of hours of practice. We get good at what we practice even without a ton of natural talent. Trouble is most of us get thousands of hours of practice flying straight and level.

The guy in the 182 is no Skip Stewart. He just has lots of time in that plane, and that was enough for what he did.

As far as details of flying the plane in that situation, slips, co-ordinated turning, etc, it has to be instictive or it aint happening. Ive spent quite a bit of time in similar types, and Im pretty sure Id have gone straight ahead, probably ending up like that guy in that other partial eng failure in a 182 vid....you know, the one with all the heavy breathing....

At some point on takeoff in a lightly loaded single its possible to do that impossible turn, but its not taught to student pilots for the very good reason that they would be much more likely to die trying it.


But yes, engine failure at that point: straight ahead, nose down, boost pump, switch tank. CS is right.

[2550]

And I dont think a stock 182 has a boost pump...so really not much to do but fly the plane.

[TG]

I though I would pitch in.

In the early 90's I had the same "sort"of thing happening to me.
C206, paradrop, partial failure just after take off. No plan B landing around.
We were literally skimming tree tops with a really rough engine. Nobody pipped a word inside. At the altitude we were, they all knew that their parachutes were only excess baggage being on board.

I didn't touch my take off flap setting, that's probably what kept us airborne the all time (yes we could hear the stall warning) managed to do a wide 180 and came back back to land.

This may sound very skilled.
What wasn't is the fact that I took off with fuel contaminated with water.

And all this:
I drained the tanks just before. Didn't notice any separation between water/100LL in my cup. No split because, well it was all water duh! And I did not smell it.
I did a run up... Which probably lasted less than one minute. Probably not enough to drain what was on the fuel lines to get to some of the water.
And yes, I noticed something starting to go wrong with the engine midway during the take off run.
With plenty of time to stop it before doing an over run. Don't ask me why, I kept going.

500TT might explain some of those stupid mistakes I made this day.
Making it without a scratch !? I call it luck.

Lesson, don't put yourself in a situation were you will have to use all your "skill" to get out of it.
Or something like this.

[Colonel Sanders]

I drained the tanks ... it was all water!

Same thing happened to me in a Mooney in Florida,
years ago. It was sitting outside, and it rained like
hell overnight. Normally hangared. Seals on fuel caps
got old.

Engine quit taxiing out. Oops.

Since then I very very carefully check the colour (hold
up against white paint) and smell and consistency of
what I drain out, to make sure it's 100LL.

Change the seals on your fuel caps, because that's
how the water gets into the tanks!

develop a very thick skin

I guess. People in Canada have been crapping
on me for decades as to how bad a pilot I am
compared to them.




Data point: the above really isn't very hard, yet
99.9999999% of the pilots in Canada cannot (and
never will be able to) do it.

Why is that? Please explain.


Not sure anyone here cares about the facts - it's all
about the feelings, for them - but this is one of the
more challenging things I have ever done in an aircraft:

www.pittspecials.com/movies/outsideloop.wmv

Line abreast formation outside loop at low altitude.

It is physically very unpleasant - far more difficult
than a solo outside loop at the surface and technically
very challenging. Perhaps 100x as difficult as that
trivial surface acro in the video above.

[Sulako]

Let's keep this on topic, shall we?

A reminder: The topic is the video posted by the OP.

[Colonel Sanders]

Sure.

Don't ever try to do, what that very skilled pilot did, because
you will certainly kill yourself.

If you have an engine failure at 250 AGL, it's wings level, nose
down to maintain airspeed and that's that.

Do that, and you will survive. Do otherwise, and you will die.

[2550]

Data point: the above really isn't very hard, yet
99.9999999% of the pilots in Canada cannot (and
never will be able to) do it.

Why is that? Please explain.

Is it because there are too few red and white Pitts specials for rent? And most 703 operators frown on low level aerobatics on company dime?

[Beefitarian]

No there's enough red rental pitts to go around. We're too cheap/broke to go do it.