CBC Fifth Estate "Left for Dead" airs November 16, 2012

[Woxof38]

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/2012-2013/2012/ ... rdead.html

[old_man]

I can hardly wait to see how the fifth estate twists this to serve their own purpose....whatever it may be.

CADOR 2008C4276

This is an interesting short article on it. The first half is essentially the pilot's version of what happened. The second half is comment from some survival expert I gather. Interesting read although it seems to have been written just a couple of days after the incident so they probably don't have all the facts or that some of them may be wrong.

My fav quote "But they [search aircraft] just couldn't see us. At one point they flew about 30 metres from us ... we were shouting and screaming and waving our arms but they didn't see us"........right.

[Beefitarian]

It's difficult to see people on the ground from a moving aircraft. Your best signals are, mirror by day flares by night.

[ahramin]

I'm amazed at how many pilots around here fly across the water at night with life jackets for everyone (packed away in the back) and no lights. I have strobe lights attached to all my life jackets, they're about $50 each. Anything you have to have to survive needs to be attached to you.

Way too often the SAR guys get told "you flew right over my head and you didn't see me under that tree".

[Doc]

Way too often the SAR guys get told "you flew right over my head and you didn't see me under that tree".

If the SAR guys get to talk to these people, then all is well, isn't it?

[ahramin]

Way too often the SAR guys get told "you flew right over my head and you didn't see me under that tree".

If the SAR guys get to talk to these people, then all is well, isn't it?

In the example of our friends on the ice, it didn't do them much harm to spend an extra 12 hours on the ice granted. In other cases though an extra 12 hours or 2 days can be very bad. A friend of mine died in the mountains of BC after a 1 hour delay finding him turned into a 12 hour delay rescuing him.

Plus 3 days of SAR is 3 times as expensive as 1 day.

[old_man]

I'm amazed at how many pilots around here fly across the water at night with life jackets for everyone (packed away in the back) and no lights. I have strobe lights attached to all my life jackets, they're about $50 each. Anything you have to have to survive needs to be attached to you.

Go the next step. Get a survival vest. The ones with the inflation built in and all sorts of pockets to keep stuff in. A lot easier to get out of a overturned aircraft in the water if your flotation is not yet inflated. Also if you crash on land and there is a post crash fire....as soon as you make your escape the bare minimum to survive is with you, not in the back smoldering away. Just a thought.

[ahramin]

I've never seen these old_man. Any links?

[old_man]

I've never seen these old_man. Any links?

Just google it man. Tons out there, which is the best for you I have no idea. Basically a take off of what all the military peeps wear.

[Taiser]

Fifth Estate is the most sensationalist pile of CBC crap on the TV today! Viktor Malaric should have himself and his stupid haircut punted to the curb, scumbag that he is!!!

[CpnCrunch]

I'd be more interesting in hearing why both engines failed, but it seems we will never get an answer:

http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/c ... pe=0&narr=

Perhaps the breather tubes iced up?

[mcrit]

I'd be more interesting in hearing why both engines failed, but it seems we will never get an answer:

http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/c ... pe=0&narr=

Perhaps the breather tubes iced up?

I'd lay odds on water in the fuel.

On an unrelated note: anyone that takes off for a flight across the high arctic wearing running shoes...........

[Sasquash]

I was just wondering, looking at this thread, if I was the only one astounded about the atrocious Search and Rescue (S&R) system we have in Canada.

The relocation of the S & R dispatch center station, in August 2012 from St. Johns to Halifax defies all level of logic by our all knowing government.

To simply cut down an international life saving service just for the sake of saving a buck is just wrong.

It would appear that our government has failed to realize that international flights are taken place 24-7 around the area of Newfoundland-Labrador and the Iqaluit region. Somebody should point out to Steven that all flights to and from Europe are going through these areas!!

For a down aircraft with survivors, having to wait at the very least 4 hours to have S&R fly in from Halifax, THEN start searching is simply ludicrous. In addition, why isn't there Infrared equipment and-or FLIR system on board Canadian Forces rescue aircraft?

Any have decent police force now have these FLIR system that would seem ideal for these type of operation, specially when you're trying to locate warm bodies in cold environment???

I'll agree with Taiser that the reporting is sometimes questionable, however if the stranded flight crew is right, and there is no evidence to the contrary, there was some aircraft overhead ,including the RCMP PC12 out of YFB. Infra red and-or FLIR could have meant an earlier rescue??

In any event Kudos to the fishing vessel and the crew for sticking around and find these two guys!

[CpnCrunch]

I'd be more interesting in hearing why both engines failed, but it seems we will never get an answer:

http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/c ... pe=0&narr=

Perhaps the breather tubes iced up?

I'd lay odds on water in the fuel.

On an unrelated note: anyone that takes off for a flight across the high arctic wearing running shoes...........

Water in the fuel wouldn't cause the oil temp and pressure to increase. Also I'd hope that anyone about to fly across the north Atlantic would do a proper preflight.

[old_man]

For a down aircraft with survivors, having to wait at the very least 4 hours to have S&R fly in from Halifax, THEN start searching is simply ludicrous.

What do you propose is a good time?

[FlyGy]

Having extensive experience with FLIR I can attest that it wouldn't be the ideal person finder in the wild. Firstly the person would have to be in the open and not sheltered, secondly, any significant wildlife heat signature would require a closer examination...Bear, deer, moose, wolf, coyote, etc, etc, etc. The search plane would be circling the same 25 square mile area for hours checking every heat signature out. Thirdly, FLIR is still limited by visual interference, ground fog, blowing snow, and such.

I agree with the others..instead of relying on our SAR people to acquire high tech equipment to find us we rather need to make all efforts to become more visible. Flares, mirrors, bright markers, strobes, neon high vis vests or hunting jackets. etc. Easy to keep in the aircraft and get you located sooner.

[Otterflogger]

Frozen oil coolers, no doubt........

[KAG]

We should have FLIR, it's appalling we don't.

[mcrit]

Water in the fuel wouldn't cause the oil temp and pressure to increase.

My mistake, I missed that part.

[Brantford Beech Boy]

and/or (just throwing this out there)....

how about basing a Cormorant/Herc in YFB to deal with northern SAR?
or at least the eastern/high Arctic where there is lots more water and time can be even more critical.

The infrastructure is already in place (FOL).

cut down about 3-4 hours to get on scene.......

BBB

[Airtids]

I'd be more interesting in hearing why both engines failed, but it seems we will never get an answer:

http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/c ... pe=0&narr=

Perhaps the breather tubes iced up?

If you were to believe Cessna, it would most likely be due to the fact this is an aging aircraft, and despite the fact there has NEVER been an instance of a wing failure (in the civvy fleet) needs to be subjected to a $30,000 wing inspection SID which would in future eliminate any possibility of double engine failure!!

In all seriousness, however, it would be great to know the cause. I've flown the type in some extremely cold conditions, and never had a problem. Increasing oil temp and pressures simultaneously seems counter-intuitive. Not buying the oil-cooler theory...

[J31]

They were at 13000 feet when the oil temps started to rise on the front engine. Soon followed by oil pressure dropping and the engine seizing. Same story on the back engine a short time later. Sounds like a in flight loss of oil.

At 13000 feet the IO-360 is not making much power or heat. Sounds like frozen breathers leading to engine oil being pumped out.

[sh*t magnet]

I was just wondering, looking at this thread, if I was the only one astounded about the atrocious Search and Rescue (S&R) system we have in Canada.

I was just wondering if anybody does any research before they spout off on this forum.

The relocation of the S & R dispatch center station, in August 2012 from St. Johns to Halifax defies all level of logic by our all knowing government.

To simply cut down an international life saving service just for the sake of saving a buck is just wrong.

The "S & R dispatch center station" in St. John's was a MARINE centre, so calls for aviation searches went to Halifax not St. John's, and it wasn't relocated it was moved into an existing RCC.

Look at the area RCC Victoria or Trenton handle and you'll see RCC Halifax is handling about the same.

For a down aircraft with survivors, having to wait at the very least 4 hours to have S&R fly in from Halifax,

there are no SAR aircraft in Halifax, Greenwood, NS and Gander NL, but not Halifax

THEN start searching is simply ludicrous. In addition, why isn't there Infrared equipment and-or FLIR system on board Canadian Forces rescue aircraft?

Any have decent police force now have these FLIR system that would seem ideal for these type of operation, specially when you're trying to locate warm bodies in cold environment???

As an outsider I too think FLIR would have helped, but why don't we let the SAR crews decide what they need, as somebody said above FLIR does have it's limitations and it was pretty obvious that these guys weren't prepared for the country they were flying over.

In any event Kudos to the fishing vessel and the crew for sticking around and find these two guys!

agreed