english is no longer the universal language of aviation

[Bobby868]

From a job posting looking for instructors.

"Because the majority of our students will be unilingual Chinese speaking,fluency in Mandarin is an absolute necessity."

You know you are fast rising to be the next super power when you can start dictating changes to international aviation standards.

[ant_321]

I find it scary on Montreal center when everyone is speaking French and I only understand 1/4 of what's going on. I can only imagine flying into somewhere where everyone is speaking mandarin.

[Beefitarian]

Does anyone have a link or reference to the international rule that states "English is the approved language" or something to that effect?

[Old Dog Flying]

I find it scary on Montreal center when everyone is speaking French and I only understand 1/4 of what's going on. I can only imagine flying into somewhere where everyone is speaking mandarin.

Welcome to the Fraser Valley Combat Zone aka Glenn Valley Practice Area.

Barney

[photofly]

iCAO Annex 10:

5 .2.1.2.1 The air-ground radiotelephony communications shall be conducted in the language normally used by the station on the ground or in the English language.

Note 1.— The language normally used by the station on the ground may not necessarily be the language of the State in which it is located. A common language may be agreed upon regionally as a requirement for stations on the ground in that region.

Note 2.— The level of language proficiency required for aeronautical radiotelephony communications is specified in the Appendix to Annex 1.


5.2.1.2.2 The English language shall be available, on request from any aircraft station, at all stations on the ground serving designated airports and routes used by international air services.

I understand there have been changes, but I think that's the latest.

[Beefitarian]

See, the wording there is slightly different from that t-shirt with the beaver choking the frog.

[Sleeve of Wizard]

"Because the majority of our students will be unilingual Chinese speaking,fluency in Mandarin is an absolute necessity."

This just means that the client speaks Mandarin, doesn't mean that you'll need to speak it over the radio.

I find it scary on Montreal center when everyone is speaking French and I only understand 1/4 of what's going on. I can only imagine flying into somewhere where everyone is speaking mandarin.

I don't see how this is a problem. If you need to know something; Centre will translate for you. I speak both English and French and have NEVER heard centre not pass on pertinent information.

[ant_321]

"Because the majority of our students will be unilingual Chinese speaking,fluency in Mandarin is an absolute necessity."

This just means that the client speaks Mandarin, doesn't mean that you'll need to speak it over the radio.

I find it scary on Montreal center when everyone is speaking French and I only understand 1/4 of what's going on. I can only imagine flying into somewhere where everyone is speaking mandarin.

I don't see how this is a problem. If you need to know something; Centre will translate for you. I speak both English and French and have NEVER heard centre not pass on pertinent information.

In a radar enviroment I completely agree with you. With no radar in a busy area I like to have an idea as to what is happening.

[fanspeed]

So learn the local lingo. Problem solved!

[TeePeeCreeper]

I find it scary on Montreal center when everyone is speaking French and I only understand 1/4 of what's going on.

And who's fault is that???
Those communicating in a language which is allowed in that FIR OR might you be responsible? I suspect that your well aware of the area your operating in and are unwilling to make the slightest effort to learn VERY BACIC aviation phraseology in French?

Regardless my point is a moot one seeing that ATC will speak to you in English, guide and "Shepard" you in English with the intent of satisflying your little Anglophones hearts desire.

How many times must this issue be brought up by a disgruntled Anglophone who "claims" that this is an safety issue. (If you truly see a safety issue here than get off your arse and learn a bit of French (it ain't gonna kill you to try...))

Get over it' already!

Regards,
TPC

[PositiveRate27]

I find it scary on Montreal center when everyone is speaking French and I only understand 1/4 of what's going on. I can only imagine flying into somewhere where everyone is speaking mandarin.

Welcome to the Fraser Valley Combat Zone aka Glenn Valley Practice Area.

Barney

I find it's more Hindi but you have a point!

[Mr.Blonde]

From a job posting looking for instructors.

"Because the majority of our students will be unilingual Chinese speaking,fluency in Mandarin is an absolute necessity."

You know you are fast rising to be the next super power when you can start dictating changes to international aviation standards.

What are you talking about.??!! what do you know about this FTU, maybe they need instructor just to give instruction to local folks that they want do their private licences doing local flight, and they will never need english. If they need instructor for cadet training, maybe they will learn english later in the stage or they consider this as another part of the training program. It's easier to learn the basics in your mother tongue, then convert it/learn in english...

[Mr.Blonde]

I find it scary on Montreal center when everyone is speaking French and I only understand 1/4 of what's going on. I can only imagine flying into somewhere where everyone is speaking mandarin.

Wait...you mean that sometimes you act as a PIC of an aircraft or part of the flight crew, you're scary and you don't know what's going on...THIS is scary !

[KK7]

You know you are fast rising to be the next super power when you can start dictating changes to international aviation standards.

Fly outside of N. America and you'll see that all languages are spoken on the radio. I'm in Chile right now, they speak Spanish on the radio.

[DanWEC]

(b) in the case a licence, documentation establishing that the applicant demonstrated, by means of an evaluation, their ability to speak and understand English or French, or both, at the operational or expert level in accordance with the language proficiency scale set out in the table to subsection 421.06(4) of the personnel licensing standards.
(amended 2008/04/17; no previous version)

There is a contradiction here. How can someone obtain a license here if they are unilingual in Mandarin?

Out of curiosity, what's the FTU?

[moocow]

What Bobby failed to point out is that the school is in China. If you think Westerners will continue to crew aircraft in China, you must be dreaming.

Edit: My original post suggesting it may be a scam is made out of ignorance. I apologize for my earlier comment.

[Cat Driver]

So learn the local lingo. Problem solved!

Obviously you have not done any international flying through various countries.

I ferried aircraft all over the world for about forty years and learning the local lingo would have been impossible.

English is the international language for aviation.......but you could lobby ICAO to change it.

[Gravol]

Unequivocally agree with Cat today

[trey kule]

I have to muse sometimes, how some of you actually pass written exams with your level of written comprehension.

ICAO. Is only concerned about International Flights. TC got a bit confused about this when they decided to formalize and jam SMS down the throats of small operators. Domestically a country can use whatever language they choose. It is not about dictating international standards. It is simply a domestic issue.

Those that have flown domestically in countries have posted the reality. For international ops, yes English. For domestic ops and training. As someone mentioned, the ability to allow people to learn in their native language is important. Then they can learn the comms in English if necessary. Not try to learn English and aviation at the same time.

For those who have not operated outside North America on non international routes, ask yourself how it would be if you only spoke English, and your instructor did not. The language requirement seems quite logical to me.

[DanWEC]

What Bobby failed to point out is that the school is in China.

Well there's a tidbit that changes things, and renders any argument about it pointless because then the requirement makes perfect sense!

[akoch]

It was Greek at some point, than Latin, French and then English, it almost became German at one point, and then there will be something else. For the time being it is easy enough to learn English if you feel so inclined. I have. But lots of people are flying internationally with no or very limited command of English, depending on where that "international" is taking you.

[moocow]

OK. A certain AVCanada veteran sent me a PM pointing out the error in my earlier comment. So I went and looked at their website, while my understanding of Simplified Chinese is pretty crap, their operations include powerline stringing, inspection, mapping, banner towing, in-flight weddings, parachute demos, and pilot training. So Bobby's original point is render moot by the fact that it's a Chinese operation and ICAO allow local language operation. Do any of us seriously think training in France and Germany all conducted in English?

Now, what's the deal with not letting Hong Kong resident applying? Taiwanese I can understand.

[avieye]

Perhaps I can clarify some of the misunderstandings, as I am the person who placed the ad.
The Flight Training Unit we are establishing is intended only to provide training to Chinese students.. The training syllabus is in Chinese. The training manuals are in Chinese. The CAAC examinations and flight tests are in Chinese. Our students all speak Chinese.
This is not about air to air or air to ground communications.
Our instructors must be able to teach , read, and write in Chinese.. That is why the requirement is there.

About a year ago we placed an ad for some line pilots. It too had the same language requirement, as all operations are conducted in Chinese..except weather, and some communications. Notwithstanding the stated language requirement, we had to wade through innumerable resumes indicating the applicant did not know Chinese but was willing to learn..It also generated a discussion thread intmating we were running some kind of scam.

We like AvCanada. It is widely read, and many many readers do not post. We believe that there are suitable candidates working in Canada and hope they will read the ad. In any event, we discussed how to try and avoid the situation that occurred last year, and thus hoped that by explaining why instructors must be fluent in Mandarin, we could avoid ay misuderstandings.. We were wrong.. I am simply not certain how to explain things clearly so someone will not take it out of context and become offended. There was absulutely no suggestion that international communications should be changed from English, and, in fact, China is making a huge effort to implement English in all communications..It is a monumental task and will take time. We are completely baffled as to how some people come to these conclusions and then take offense.

As to the question of passport restriction. That is not us making that restriction, but the CAAC (Civil Aviaition Authority of China). Whether we agree with it or not, we have to abide by it.

We do hope that qualified instructors will see our ad, and respond. We are a good company. We have been in business since 1986. This is a new venture for us, and we think that it will provide some great opportunities for instructors as well as excellent working conditions and benefits.

If anyone has specific questions, please feel free to PM me and I will try and answer them
as best I can, but I am not closely involved in the flight training school.

[bmc]

I find it scary on Montreal center when everyone is speaking French and I only understand 1/4 of what's going on. I can only imagine flying into somewhere where everyone is speaking mandarin.

Better tay wy from France and Switzerland wher French is spoken all the way up to 24,000 ft.

[Beefitarian]

You can get the Honglaise in all the big cities with international flights also BMC, Toulouse, Paris, etc.

I had to break out the pantomime to help my poor french trying to chat with some glider pilots, a couple of them had excellent but limited english, at the wonderful grass strip in the country side I stubled upon during a vacation though. Too bad too because they were all so nice to the "stoopeed honglaise" that dropped by for a random visit.