O470 overhauled
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O470 overhauled
Good evening gentleman. I had my engine in my 182 overhauled and about 4 days away from getting it back. Looking for any advice on the first flight breakin.
Re: O470 overhauled
The proper "break in" period lasts much longer than the first flight. You'll want to follow the maint instructions regarding oil type and change frequency. Baby it for a while
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Re: O470 overhauled
No. Follow the break-in instructions from the engineBaby it for a while
overhaul shop, and the engine manufacturer.
Contrary to all the nonsense you may hear, breaking
in an engine is all about getting the piston rings to seat.
Poor break-in technique (babying) leads to excessive
blow-by, low compressions and high oil consumption.
http://www.airpowerinc.com/downloads/PD ... htTips.pdf
What I do, for a new engine (or a new jug, same thing)
to seat the rings:
0) mineral oil
1) run it for 2 min with cowls off to check for leaks
2) cowls go back on
3) start & minimize taxi time. As soon as the CHT
is in the green, all the knobs go forward and stay there.
With c/s prop you can drop the RPM a bit to increase
the BMEP.
4) when the oil temp drops, rings are seated
5) first flight should be a couple hours. Don't go too
high, otherwise MP will drop. Max 2000 AGL overhead
the airport, driving around in circles. After 2 hrs, rings
will be seated, because nobody runs chrome cyls any more.
6) you know rings are seated when oil consumption
stabilizes.
7) if you are of a technical bent, you can rig a manometer
to the vent tube and watch each cylinder rings seat as
the crankcase pressure drops.
Re: O470 overhauled
By baby it, I mean to not firewall the thing off the gate and respect the operating parameters. The manual will give you an initial break in set up and run info which will tell you at what rpm and for how long to keep it there, not firewalled. They may have done this at the shop so you won't have to worry about the ring seating. Once that's done then follow the manufacturers instructions for new or o/h'd engines, easy as that.
Thanks to the tool for that SB link, all the info is there.
August 1989
SUBJECT:
TELEDYNE INDUSTRIES, INC. 1989 Member of GAMA General Aviation
(continued)
M89-7R1 Supersedes M89-7
Technical Portions Are FAA Approved
ENGINE OPERATION AFTER CYLINDER REPLACEMENT AND/OR MAJOR OVERHAUL
MODELS AFFECTED:All Models (Steel, Nitrided or Chrome Cylinders) Proper operation of the engine following cylinder replacement or major overhaul is extremely important. The following procedures should be followed to insure that adequate lubrication is being provided to newly installed components and that the piston ring seating will occur as soon as possible. I.Operation After Major Overhaul Utilizing an Engine Test Cell A.Servicing and Pre-starting Procedures 1.Service the lubricating system with mineral oil of the appropriate grade depending on ambient temperature. NOTE...Corrosion preventive mineral oil MIL-C-6529 Type II can be used but must not be used after the first 25 hours, or six months, whichever occurs first as this oil can cause coking with extended use. 2.Rotate the propeller by hand through several cycles with the spark plugs removed. 3.Pre-oil the lubrication system using an external pre-oiling pressure system. 4.Install the spark plugs and ignition harness. B.Test Cell Operational Procedures 1.Consult the applicable TCM Overhaul Manual and follow the recommended test cell operational procedures listed. II.Operation After Major Overhaul Utilizing The Aircraft in Lieu of an Engine Test Cell A.The aircraft can be considered a suitable test stand for running-in overhauled engines contingent on the following conditions: 1.Install engine cowling.
TELEDYNE CONTINENTAL MOTORS Aircraft Products PO Box 90 Mobile Alabama 36601
4 August 1989M89-7R1Page 2
2.Each cylinder should be equipped with a temperature sensing device to monitor the head temperature. If the aircraft cylinder head temperature gauge monitors one cylinder, the following precaution must be adhered to: During ground runs do not permit monitored head temperatures to exceed 400 degrees f or oil temperature to exceed 200 degrees f. 3.The flight propeller may be used contingent on careful observation of cylinder temperatures. Head the aircraft into the wind for this test. 4.Calibration of the aircraft engine instruments must be performed. B.Prepare and test the engine per the procedures outlined in Paragraph I above. III.Engine Operation After Cylinder(s) Overhaul or Installation of New Cylinder(s) A.Engine Starting and Ground Operation 1.Service the engine with mineral oil of the appropriate grade depending on ambient temperature. NOTE...Corrosion preventive mineral oil MIL-C-6529 can be used but must not be used after the first 25 hours, or six months, whichever occurs first as this oil can cause coking with extended use. 2.Assure that all engine and cylinder bafflings is properly installed and in good condition. 3.Cowl the engine. Start the engine and assure that oil pressure rises to within the specified limits within 30 seconds. 4. Operate the engine at 750 RPM for one minute, gradually increasing toward 1000 RPM in three minutes. Check the magneto circuit for grounding prior to a normal shut-down. Allow the engine to cool adequately and then make a visual inspection for any irregularities.
(continued)
4 August 1989M89-7R1Page 3
5.Start the engine again and operate it at 750 RPM gradually increasing to 1500 RPM over a period of four minutes. If the engine is equipped with a controllable pitch propeller, cycle the propeller allowing only a 100 PRM drop. Return to the idle range and make adjustments to the idle mixture and RPM as required on carburetor engines and to the low unmetered fuel pressure, idle RPM and mixture on fuel injected engines. Position the throttle to 1200 RPM to smooth the engine. Then do an idle mixture check. Refer to the appropriate service information for these fuel system adjustments. Run engine up to full power for a period not to exceed 10 seconds. Visually inspect and correct any discrepancies. Check the oil quantity. Re-cowl the engine in preparation for test flight. B.Test Flight 1.Ambient air and engine operation temperatures are of major concern during this test flight. Do a normal pre-flight run-up in accordance with the aircraft flight manual. Conduct a normal take-off with full power and monitor the fuel flow, RPM, oil pressure, cylinder head temperatures and oil temperatures. Reduce to climb power in accordance with the flight manual and maintain a shallow climb attitude to gain optimum airspeed and cooling. Rich mixture for all operations except lean for field elevation where applicable and lean to maintain smoothness during climb in accordance with airframe manufacturer's operating instructions. 2.Level flight cruise should be at 75% power with best power or richer mixture for the first hour of operation. The second hour power settings should alternate between 65% and 75% power with the appropriate best power mixture settings. Engine controls or aircraft attitude should be adjusted as required to maintain engine instrumentation within specifications. 3.The descent should be made at low cruise power settings, with careful monitoring of engine pressures and temperatures. Avoid long descents with cruise RPM and manifold pressure below 18" hg.; if necessary decrease the RPM sufficiently to maintain manifold pressure. 4.Any discrepancies detected during test flight or any final adjustments necessary should now be made. The engine can be operated in normal service in accordance with the aircraft flight manual.
Thanks to the tool for that SB link, all the info is there.
August 1989
SUBJECT:
TELEDYNE INDUSTRIES, INC. 1989 Member of GAMA General Aviation
(continued)
M89-7R1 Supersedes M89-7
Technical Portions Are FAA Approved
ENGINE OPERATION AFTER CYLINDER REPLACEMENT AND/OR MAJOR OVERHAUL
MODELS AFFECTED:All Models (Steel, Nitrided or Chrome Cylinders) Proper operation of the engine following cylinder replacement or major overhaul is extremely important. The following procedures should be followed to insure that adequate lubrication is being provided to newly installed components and that the piston ring seating will occur as soon as possible. I.Operation After Major Overhaul Utilizing an Engine Test Cell A.Servicing and Pre-starting Procedures 1.Service the lubricating system with mineral oil of the appropriate grade depending on ambient temperature. NOTE...Corrosion preventive mineral oil MIL-C-6529 Type II can be used but must not be used after the first 25 hours, or six months, whichever occurs first as this oil can cause coking with extended use. 2.Rotate the propeller by hand through several cycles with the spark plugs removed. 3.Pre-oil the lubrication system using an external pre-oiling pressure system. 4.Install the spark plugs and ignition harness. B.Test Cell Operational Procedures 1.Consult the applicable TCM Overhaul Manual and follow the recommended test cell operational procedures listed. II.Operation After Major Overhaul Utilizing The Aircraft in Lieu of an Engine Test Cell A.The aircraft can be considered a suitable test stand for running-in overhauled engines contingent on the following conditions: 1.Install engine cowling.
TELEDYNE CONTINENTAL MOTORS Aircraft Products PO Box 90 Mobile Alabama 36601
4 August 1989M89-7R1Page 2
2.Each cylinder should be equipped with a temperature sensing device to monitor the head temperature. If the aircraft cylinder head temperature gauge monitors one cylinder, the following precaution must be adhered to: During ground runs do not permit monitored head temperatures to exceed 400 degrees f or oil temperature to exceed 200 degrees f. 3.The flight propeller may be used contingent on careful observation of cylinder temperatures. Head the aircraft into the wind for this test. 4.Calibration of the aircraft engine instruments must be performed. B.Prepare and test the engine per the procedures outlined in Paragraph I above. III.Engine Operation After Cylinder(s) Overhaul or Installation of New Cylinder(s) A.Engine Starting and Ground Operation 1.Service the engine with mineral oil of the appropriate grade depending on ambient temperature. NOTE...Corrosion preventive mineral oil MIL-C-6529 can be used but must not be used after the first 25 hours, or six months, whichever occurs first as this oil can cause coking with extended use. 2.Assure that all engine and cylinder bafflings is properly installed and in good condition. 3.Cowl the engine. Start the engine and assure that oil pressure rises to within the specified limits within 30 seconds. 4. Operate the engine at 750 RPM for one minute, gradually increasing toward 1000 RPM in three minutes. Check the magneto circuit for grounding prior to a normal shut-down. Allow the engine to cool adequately and then make a visual inspection for any irregularities.
(continued)
4 August 1989M89-7R1Page 3
5.Start the engine again and operate it at 750 RPM gradually increasing to 1500 RPM over a period of four minutes. If the engine is equipped with a controllable pitch propeller, cycle the propeller allowing only a 100 PRM drop. Return to the idle range and make adjustments to the idle mixture and RPM as required on carburetor engines and to the low unmetered fuel pressure, idle RPM and mixture on fuel injected engines. Position the throttle to 1200 RPM to smooth the engine. Then do an idle mixture check. Refer to the appropriate service information for these fuel system adjustments. Run engine up to full power for a period not to exceed 10 seconds. Visually inspect and correct any discrepancies. Check the oil quantity. Re-cowl the engine in preparation for test flight. B.Test Flight 1.Ambient air and engine operation temperatures are of major concern during this test flight. Do a normal pre-flight run-up in accordance with the aircraft flight manual. Conduct a normal take-off with full power and monitor the fuel flow, RPM, oil pressure, cylinder head temperatures and oil temperatures. Reduce to climb power in accordance with the flight manual and maintain a shallow climb attitude to gain optimum airspeed and cooling. Rich mixture for all operations except lean for field elevation where applicable and lean to maintain smoothness during climb in accordance with airframe manufacturer's operating instructions. 2.Level flight cruise should be at 75% power with best power or richer mixture for the first hour of operation. The second hour power settings should alternate between 65% and 75% power with the appropriate best power mixture settings. Engine controls or aircraft attitude should be adjusted as required to maintain engine instrumentation within specifications. 3.The descent should be made at low cruise power settings, with careful monitoring of engine pressures and temperatures. Avoid long descents with cruise RPM and manifold pressure below 18" hg.; if necessary decrease the RPM sufficiently to maintain manifold pressure. 4.Any discrepancies detected during test flight or any final adjustments necessary should now be made. The engine can be operated in normal service in accordance with the aircraft flight manual.
Last edited by Heliian on Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Colonel Sanders
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Re: O470 overhauled
actually, that's exactly what you want to do, to seatBy baby it, I mean to not firewall the thing off the gate
the rings, once the CHT is in the green.
Re: O470 overhauled
Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.
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Re: O470 overhauled
No problem, my engines have the best compressions on the field.
One of my engines, I have been maintaining it for longer than you
probably have been alive.
One of my engines, I have been maintaining it for longer than you
probably have been alive.
Re: O470 overhauled
Interested to hear how would this work>? I would think that the end of the vent tube would still have to be open to the atmosphere to keep the crank case from pressurizing.7) if you are of a technical bent, you can rig a manometer
to the vent tube and watch each cylinder rings seat as
the crankcase pressure drops.
Can you sketch it out for us Colonel?
Re: O470 overhauled
Excellent advice. Iflyoffgrass, note the following from the manufacturer:Colonel Sanders wrote:No. Follow the break-in instructions from the engineBaby it for a while
overhaul shop, and the engine manufacturer.
Note that for your 182 Continental has some further info for constant speed props. Make sure you write down and use the MP and RPM settings for 65 to 75 percent power from your POH.The normal prescribed flight procedure after ring replacement is to keep ground running to a minimum, take off at full power and reduce to climb power at the first available safe altitude, all while keeping the climb angle flat and the climb airspeed higher to promote the best cooling possible. At cruise altitude we should use 65% to 75% power and run the engine richer then normal. At all times we are to remember that heat is the greatest enemy of engine break in, we should try to maintain all engine temperatures in the green, well away from the top of the green arc or red line. This means step climbing the aircraft if necessary, operating with the cowl flaps open or in trail position during cruise flight and being generous with the fuel allocation for the engine. We should not run the engine above 75% power in cruise flight because the B.M.E.P is too great and the likelihood of glazing increases. As you can see, keeping the engine as cool as is practical and at a conducive power setting is the best combination for successful engine break in.
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Re: O470 overhauled
In the last 40 years, every single engine that I have
ever seen (or even heard of) that had problems from
improper break-in (low compression, high oil burn)
was operated at improperly low power settings for
an excessive amount of time during break-in.
You do not have to be a rocket scientist to spot the
pattern, but I suppose it wouldn't hurt.
Seat the rings. Three monosyllabic words.
Note the following two-wheeled break-in technique:

ever seen (or even heard of) that had problems from
improper break-in (low compression, high oil burn)
was operated at improperly low power settings for
an excessive amount of time during break-in.
You do not have to be a rocket scientist to spot the
pattern, but I suppose it wouldn't hurt.
Seat the rings. Three monosyllabic words.
Note the following two-wheeled break-in technique:

Re: O470 overhauled
I'm curious too.. how many inches wc would you expect, start/finish of break-in flight? Do you run the line in outside the cowl and in through a window to the U? Where do you take the negative reference pressure? No tongue in cheek here. It's an interesting idea.CamAero wrote:Interested to hear how would this work>? I would think that the end of the vent tube would still have to be open to the atmosphere to keep the crank case from pressurizing.7) if you are of a technical bent, you can rig a manometer
to the vent tube and watch each cylinder rings seat as
the crankcase pressure drops.
Can you sketch it out for us Colonel?
The sport bike is a good example of how a good hard break-in run is beneficial. Every 18 or 38 year old kid who scraped up enough money to take one of those out of the showroom probably had it wound out within blocks of the bike shop, and for the rest of the week if they still had time and gas money.
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Re: O470 overhauled
Drive her like you stole her!
But really, read the manufacturers recommendations, they have a little experience making those engines work and last untill overhaul
But really, read the manufacturers recommendations, they have a little experience making those engines work and last untill overhaul
- Colonel Sanders
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Re: O470 overhauled
Not a very original one, I am afraid. I learned itIt's an interesting idea
from a (then) 70 yr old machinist who used to
rebuild large quantities of (stationary) engines,
after WWII.
It was part of their break-in procedure and
documentation for the customer. He said you
could easily see the step down in the crankcase
pressure as each individual cylinder's rings seated
and the blow-by stopped.
The poor man's way of doing this is to watch
the oil temp. When all of the cylinders rings are
not seated, the hot combustion chamber blow-by
will heat the oil in the crankcase.
When the rings seat - and they will do so, suddenly -
the hot blow-by stops heating the oil and you will
observe a sudden drop of oil temperature.
I learned that trick from an old, long-dead pilot.
All of these old guys (and their knowledge) is gone,
I am afraid.
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Re: O470 overhauled
That's why you need to write a book before you are too.All of these old guys (and their knowledge) is gone,
I am afraid.
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Re: O470 overhauled
my 0-470 is now nicely broken in. I used pretty much the method the Colonel described earlier. First flight was to spark it up, get on the roll and off the ground in a long shallow climb which took me out over a fairly large lake that I stayed over for an hour or so at about 100' above the water (I'm on floats). Came back in and pulled the cowl to make sure everything was ok (nuts, bolts, cables, leaks.....) put it back together and did another hour of the same. Then flew it 1000 miles the next two days in 3+ hr legs. Did a bunch of 1 hr flights over the summer/fall and then another 1000 miles home. Just put it away the other day. Pulled the oil & replaced with inhibitor oil, vacuumed the floats and put a touch of antifreeze in each compartment, shut the fuel off & ran the carb dry of fuel, checked the sumps for any water or crap, pulled the battery and just now realize that I didn't turn off the elt. Tied it down and locked the controls. Took the "books", maps & gps out. What is "normal" oil burn once it is broken in?
Re: O470 overhauled
My O-470 is at about 300 hours since new jugs and it uses about a quart every 50 hours but I am told that I am lucky in that regard.What is "normal" oil burn once it is broken in?
What did you find for consumption during the break in? Anything?
CA
- Colonel Sanders
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Re: O470 overhauled
As Larry King once said when asked what kind of underwearWhat is "normal" oil burn once it is broken in?
he wears: "Depends".
Anywhere from 5 to 50 hrs per quart is "normal". Depends
upon how well the rings seated, how worn they are, what
level the oil is kept at (windage), how it is flown, etc.
You're going to think I'm strange, but I worry about ana quart every 50 hours
engine with oil burn that low. It begs the question - is
there any value to getting a little oil up past the rings,
or does it just form carbon deposits? Our aviation oil
is not supposed to - it's ashless dispersant, of course.
A friend of mine ferried a Douglas Skyraider (spad)
across the North Atlantic, and his range was limited
by the oil consumption - not fuel! I thought the engine
was worn out, but apparently that big old radial was
rebuilt "loose" - they thought that it would last longer
if it got some oil up past the rings. Beats me. I know
nothing about rebuilding large radial engines - I just
fly them.
PS Yes, he knew how to rig up a 55 gal drum and
a wobble pump and hose, but didn't have time.
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Re: O470 overhauled
I was about a ltr./hr. for those first two hours and then a ltr. after 6hrs and then a ltr. for the next 30 hrs. Temps all seem to be real good. This "glazing" of the cylinders in a rebuild had me terrified. This was my first break-in that I had paid the bill. I think many people think that an engine is like a human and needs to work into something slowly... stretching & warming up before strenuous excercise. It's not the same. There are some pretty good articles that I read desrcibing what is actually happening, why and what to expect. The Colonel has decribed the simple/understandable basics that we need to know. With your 4 stroke snowmachine, not using oil is not a good thing. That is why I ask about "normal" for an 0-470. Thought the some use should be expected but at what point are you using too much and should be thinking something is wrong? I had a IO-540 that I changed the oil every 50 hrs and never needed to add any until around the 50 hr. point so I did that instead of adding. Oil is cheap.
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Re: O470 overhauled
Engines are really pretty simple:
1) do a good job of seating the rings
2) fly it frequently - biggest problem facing private
aircraft is internal corrosion. Some people like camguard.
If you're not going to fly it, pickle it with 2F and pull the
battery.
3) preheat when it's below zero C to avoid metal
on metal and reduced clearances. In the winter,
run multi-viscosity oil. Your bearings will thank you.
4) watch the engine temps. For me, CHT is king. I
like 200 CHT before I put 1700 RPM to it for the runup
to avoid putting aluminum into the oil, and I like 300 CHT
for takeoff, and I don't like to ever go above 400 CHT.
If you do the 4 things above, your engine will make good
power, have reasonable oil consumption, and easily
exceed published TBO.
1) do a good job of seating the rings
2) fly it frequently - biggest problem facing private
aircraft is internal corrosion. Some people like camguard.
If you're not going to fly it, pickle it with 2F and pull the
battery.
3) preheat when it's below zero C to avoid metal
on metal and reduced clearances. In the winter,
run multi-viscosity oil. Your bearings will thank you.
4) watch the engine temps. For me, CHT is king. I
like 200 CHT before I put 1700 RPM to it for the runup
to avoid putting aluminum into the oil, and I like 300 CHT
for takeoff, and I don't like to ever go above 400 CHT.
If you do the 4 things above, your engine will make good
power, have reasonable oil consumption, and easily
exceed published TBO.
Re: O470 overhauled
Lycoming, not CMI but...
For my Mooney at 200HP that's 0.65 Qt./Hour !?!?!?!
Not necessarily "normal" but considered acceptable by Lycoming.
Glenn
Reference: http://www.lycoming.com/support/publica ... I1427C.pdf (top of page 2)Quote:
The following formula is used to calculate the maximum allowable oil consumption limits for all
Lycoming aircraft engines.
0.006 x BHP x 4 ÷ 7.4 = Qt./Hr.
For my Mooney at 200HP that's 0.65 Qt./Hour !?!?!?!
Not necessarily "normal" but considered acceptable by Lycoming.
Glenn
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Re: O470 overhauled
Yeah, I know Lycoming allows ridiculous oilFor my Mooney at 200HP that's 0.65 Qt./Hour
consumption. And TCM allows ridiculously low
compressions.
The lesson here is that you can have badly
worn (and even broken) piston rings, and the
engine will still make good power and run pretty
well.
As a very rough rule of thumb, when a 4 cyl
boxer engine gets down to 2 hrs/qt, or a 6
cyl boxer engine gets down to 3 hrs/qt, you'd
better be budgeting on at least a top overhaul
in the near future. Maybe a major overhaul,
if the total time is near TBO.
The trend is important. If it's been 10 hrs/qt
for the last 1500 hrs, and it's suddenly dropped
to 2 hrs/qt, that engine is trying to tell you that
something's happened, even if the new number
might be "acceptable".
It might just be one cylinder. Doing a leakdown
test is good, but sometimes if the rings are
pooched, they will let so much oil into the cylinder
that they seal the rings and give a good compression
number, which is misleading.
In fact, decades ago when I was a kid working on
car engines, that was the test for a low cylinder - if
you squirted some oil into the cyl and the compression
came up, it was the rings that were shot.
Learning to read the sparkplugs is worthwhile. On
a boxer aircraft engine, when it's new the bottom
and top plugs will be whistle-clean. As the engine
ages and the rings wear, the bottom plug will start
to get just a little oily, but the top plug will still look
pretty good. When the rings are done, not only
will the bottom plug be oily, the top plug will also
be oily.
That's when I know the rings are shot - the top
plug is oily. Time to pull the cylinder, and hope
there is enough meat left in the barrel to hone
it and still have acceptable choke, so I can put
a new set of rings in it. That's the inexpensive
fix.
Re: O470 overhauled
Did you mean that the other way around?Colonel Sanders wrote: As a very rough rule of thumb, when a 4 cyl
boxer engine gets down to 2 hrs/qt, or a 6
cyl boxer engine gets down to 3 hrs/qt, you'd
better be budgeting on at least a top overhaul
3hrs/qt for a 4 cyl and 2hrs/qt for a 6 cyl?
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Re: O470 overhauled
OK ~ So now can you sketch the plumbing of the manometer on the crankcase breather for us?
CA
CA