Air Tindi Layoffs-Unprecedented

[lostinthebattle]

Air Tindi laying off, thats something you don't see every day. How's Discovery Air working for you?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/sto ... yoffs.html

[BTyyj]

Poorly written article

[YYZSaabGuy]

How's Discovery Air working for you?

You mean over the 4 years and 11 months since Discovery Air acquired Air Tindi, during which time several hundred people, including dozens of pilots, have been employed and paid on time, operations have been expanded, aircraft added to the fleet, and Tindi's customers have been looked after? Rather well, I'd say. What's your point?

[iflyforpie]

Layoffs in aviation? Inconceivable!

[Donald]

How's Discovery Air working for you?

You mean over the 4 years and 11 months since Discovery Air acquired Air Tindi, during which time several hundred people, including dozens of pilots, have been employed and paid on time, operations have been expanded, aircraft added to the fleet, and Tindi's customers have been looked after? Rather well, I'd say. What's your point?

Well their share price is not reflecting their success.

What's up with yzf this year, First Air layoffs and now Tindi layoffs, how's Ledcor doing?

[lostinthebattle]

. What's your point?

Its just not something done in the last 20+ years. A least on the Twin Otter side of things.

[Shiny Side Up]

Layoffs in aviation? Inconceivable!

I do not think that word means what you think it means...

[YYZSaabGuy]

Well their share price is not reflecting their success.

Agreed, Donald, but don't make the mistake of confusing operating performance with stock price performance. DA's stock price has lagged for a number of reasons, including a small float (lots of insiders hanging on to their shares resulting in low trading volumes and liquidity), a high debt load, concerns over the Top Aces contract, a management team that hasn't done a great job of explaining the company to the markets, less-than-stellar performance by the stock market generally, and the fact that there are competing specialty aviation company stocks out there with significantly better performance (EIC, HNZ anyone?). That said, layoffs suck any time of the year but never more than just prior to Christmas - here's hoping that this turns out to be just a seasonal thing.

[Slats]

A quick Google search revealed the total 2011 compensation paid to the 5 top dogs at Discovery:

-Dave Jennings, President and CEO: $902,488
-Andy Min, VP and CFO: $365,066
-Paul Bouchard, Executive VP Business Development: $513,327
-Didier Toussaint, Group President Government Services: $512,927
-Adam Bembridge, Group President Northern Services: $482,132
2011 Total: $2,775,940

Now, in fairness, these poor fellas took a hit this fiscal year. Their pay dropped across the board:

-$630,228
-$258,296
-$449,475
-$449,475
-$422,238
2012 Total: $2,209,712

Tough year to be a big shot.

Excuse me while I muse aloud:
I wonder how many of these guys live in Yellowknife, as opposed to somewhere much more affordable. After all they are a "northern company" right? Regardless, it seems to me that if times are tough at Discovery, these 5 guys could take a pay cut to $200,000 each, and still be living very comfortably wherever they reside. This would free up no less than $1.2 million which I would guess would easily offset the salaries of the laid off workers, allowing everyone to have a happy holiday. Maybe that wouldn't be dignified and befitting of a CEO, I don't really know.

Something else to consider from the same search results-
If these guys were to be terminated, they are entitled to the following golden parachutes:
-Mr. Jennings: $1,462,598
-Mr. Min: $525,608
-Mr. Toussaint: $883,900
-Mr. Bouchard: $883,900
-Mr. Bembridge: $831,000

I wonder what those who get laid off are entitled to...

[xsbank]

Slats, have you been living under a rock? Remember A.C.E? Aeroplan? Looked in Robinescu's (spelling - sorry) pocket recently? This is aviation - no different from any other corporation except we eat our young.

[Gorgons]

We all freely choose the beds we sleep in... if you didn't know what you were getting yourself into when you made the jump from PPL to CPL shame on you! You could have gone the management route at some point, you elected not to.

I love the guys that point up and say they should cut their salary in half so this guy can have a job too! Ever consider they worked their way into the salary just like anybody else? Who appointed you as the decider of how much is too much for somebody else to make? Should the Triple 7 guys give up half their cheques and distribute the cash to all the Navajo pilots because I think as a group they make too much and the other guys not enough?

[jspitfire]

Still waiting to see 3rd quarter results too.

[182-SS]

We all freely choose the beds we sleep in... if you didn't know what you were getting yourself into when you made the jump from PPL to CPL shame on you! You could have gone the management route at some point, you elected not to.

I love the guys that point up and say they should cut their salary in half so this guy can have a job too! Ever consider they worked their way into the salary just like anybody else? Who appointed you as the decider of how much is too much for somebody else to make? Should the Triple 7 guys give up half their cheques and distribute the cash to all the Navajo pilots because I think as a group they make too much and the other guys not enough?

Well said, whats that old saying…. You cant multiply wealth by dividing it? FACT.

[flyinthebug]

How's Discovery Air working for you?

You mean over the 4 years and 11 months since Discovery Air acquired Air Tindi, during which time several hundred people, including dozens of pilots, have been employed and paid on time, operations have been expanded, aircraft added to the fleet, and Tindi's customers have been looked after? Rather well, I'd say. What's your point?

Well their share price is not reflecting their success.

What's up with yzf this year, First Air layoffs and now Tindi layoffs, how's Ledcor doing?

Agreed Donald. The share prices have lost over 50% of their intial value since they hit the TSX. I think you hit the nail on the head with the Ledcor comment. Since they bought Sunwest etc, it seems the formerly "larger" operations are all facing lay offs and lack of work. Another big dog has moved in, undercutting Tindi in the process and seems to me they are taking a bigger bite of local business than was first thought they would. Stay tuned, it should get interesting.

Fly safe all.

[YYZSaabGuy]

Regardless, it seems to me that if times are tough at Discovery, these 5 guys could take a pay cut to $200,000 each, and still be living very comfortably wherever they reside. This would free up no less than $1.2 million which I would guess would easily offset the salaries of the laid off workers, allowing everyone to have a happy holiday.

That's a terrific idea. I'm sure the flight crew not laid off will be equally happy to donate some of their earnings and pool that money for the benefit of the lower-paid ramp and admin personnel, right? That way they could enjoy a happier holiday too. This approach you'll recall worked particularly well in the USSR and China in the 20th century - not...

I've worked in a bunch of different industries, including aviation, and I've not seen anywhere else where there's this prevailing mindset that the economics of the business don't matter, that workers are somehow entitled to be paid on a par with management despite the economy and despite the company's performance. We're all free agents, and as Gorgons pointed out, we've all made choices. You want to be paid like management? Go back to school, get your MBA or CA or CFA or whatever, spend 20+ years working your way through junior positions into senior management, and then take on the responsibilities and workload that go with that kind of pay. Or alternately, give up your current position, start your own aviation company, and spend 20 or 30 years building it up and taking the risks that entails. Just be prepared to put up with a bullshit attitude from a bunch of envious wannabes who weren't prepared to make the investment or take the risk, but who still feel entitled to the return because, y'know, they're special.

[Slats]

Xs - No I have not been living under a rock. Also, I never suggested that aviation is different than any other corporation. Quite the opposite.

Gorgons - You have missed the point by a country mile, and I will add, that goes for you too saabguy. I am not suggesting that the top tier take pay cuts to create jobs or redistribute wealth or anything like that. If you honestly believe that the fat needing to be trimmed in any corporation resides in a handful of low level employees, you are delusional.

You are also fooling yourself if you believe CEOs work harder than anyone else within a given company to get where they are.

[Slats]

Or alternately, give up your current position, start your own aviation company, and spend 20 or 30 years building it up and taking the risks that entails.

During the time Discovery was getting bailed out by the government, I worked for just such a fellow. The same tough economy was making things tight for his air service as well. He stopped collecting a paycheck for a number of months in a row. The line pilots all got paid on time. No one got laid off. He has the respect of myself and many many former employees.

Anyway, enjoy your debate. I'll head back into hiding. Didn't take long to remember why I was there in the first place.

[YYZSaabGuy]

During the time Discovery was getting bailed out by the government, I worked for just such a fellow. The same tough economy was making things tight for his air service as well. He stopped collecting a paycheck for a number of months in a row. The line pilots all got paid on time. No one got laid off. He has the respect of myself and many many former employees.

That's a commendable example, and good for him, although you're kind of making my point for me: sometimes being an owner and a manager isn't nearly as glamorous or as lucrative as it seems.

By the way, that "bailout" that people on here keep raking up was a loan, not a grant. It was repaid in full, ahead of schedule, and it earned the NT Government a nice fat 10%/year yield while it was outstanding. It also saved several hundred jobs in the North, thereby preserving the livelihoods of several hundred families, all the while generating additional tax revenues for all three levels of government, plus airport fees, NavCan fees, GST revenues, and so forth. Not bad for a "bailout", and it goes to show that they're not always the evil that certain right-wing economists, or envious competitors for that matter, make them out to be.

[midwingcrisis]

YELLOWKNIFE, Nov. 28, 2012 /CNW/ - Discovery Air Inc. ("Discovery Air") announced today the appointment of Jacob (Koby) Shavit as its President and Chief Executive Officer ("CEO") and the appointment of Brian Semkowski as a director and Chair of the Board. The appointments are effective December 13, 2012 .

[trey kule]

You could have gone the management route at some point, you elected not to.


You know, every so often I read a thread that completely restores my faith in aviation people...thanks to the posters that seem to understand how the economy really works..... It is good to know that there are people out there that understand something other than the pilot's poor me perspective...everyone else is lazy, overpaid, and stupid.
I have to wonder how the poster who suggested pay cuts for executives would feel if people here were suggesting he take a pay cut.

Seems to me that the CEO and founder of WJ went to $1 a year salary after a bad quarter....And he was a guy that started up the ladder pretty much like everyone else.

[Slats]

Gee trey, I'm happy that you had your faith in aviation restored. Kinda sad how it happened though. For the record, I understand "how the economy really works," at least as much as an average joe can, which is probably about how well you understand it. I understand that when margins get thin, it is the CEOs' prerogative to decide what to do about it. I understand that sometimes that means layoffs. I don't bemoan any of this, so long as it's justifiable, and so long as if fat is to be trimmed, it is trimmed from wherever there is excess. It just so happens that I believe that the most fat in just about any given corporation, exists at the top. If you disagree, then I would say that you are the one who is out of touch with the reality of how things really work.
Good day.

[Trematode]

You guys should meet in the middle: Both sides have valid points. Soviet style redistrubution of wealth doesn't work, obviously, and I dont think slats is seriously suggesting it would.

At the same time you can't ignore the fact that executive pay (in all industries -- not just ours), has gotten insane over the past 30 years. Something has gone haywire.

[Slats]

And now my faith is restored.
Thanks trematode.

[NeverBlue]

We all freely choose the beds we sleep in... if you didn't know what you were getting yourself into when you made the jump from PPL to CPL shame on you! You could have gone the management route at some point, you elected not to.

I love the guys that point up and say they should cut their salary in half so this guy can have a job too! Ever consider they worked their way into the salary just like anybody else? Who appointed you as the decider of how much is too much for somebody else to make? Should the Triple 7 guys give up half their cheques and distribute the cash to all the Navajo pilots because I think as a group they make too much and the other guys not enough?

It always amazes me. We complain about not making enough in this industry...then when someone does make a great living...the rest of us complain they're making too much.

I've known a couple of those guys for over 20 years...they've all worked their way up to those salaries from peanuts

You are also fooling yourself if you believe CEOs work harder than anyone else within a given company to get where they are.

How do you know? Have you ever been a CEO?

Some of them work up to 18 hours a day...every day.

[Slats]

Get in back of the line with the rest of the bunch who missed the point entirely.