Why??

[jigger]

Why is there so many of us in this Profession OK with all the degradation of pay, benefits and working conditions. I understand that if I don't want to work at a certain company than don't apply and all this stuff, to a point. But it's really and insult to us as professionals. As from my understanding all other professions are gaining ground in the pay/benefits/working conditions categories.

Pilots are bending over because??

[I WAS Birddog]

Pilots are bending over because??

....There's 100 guys behind him that can touch their toes...?

Sorry, the double (ended) entendre may get lost in translation with this crowd. So, I won't bother explaining.

Good luck.

[CanadianEh]

Why do you think more than half of the students at FTUs are from overseas? Canadian kids are less interested in pursuing aviation as a career. They are interested in instant gratification and financial rewards, two things that aviation doesn't readily provide.

[sanjet]

In a way, the degradation of working conditions of a typical pilot will only discourage the future aspiring pilots to get their licences. We have to remember like everything, the rule of supply and demand will always lead the way. I actually do believe that within the next 5-7 years there will indeed be a urgent real shortage of "experienced" pilots to fill seats as air traffic increases substantially in the next 10-20 years as fewer pilots decide to pursue this crap.

[slowstream]

Pilots are bending over because??

....There's 100 guys behind him that can touch their toes...?

Sorry, the double (ended) entendre may get lost in translation with this crowd. So, I won't bother explaining.

Good luck.

Birddog,

Not at all lost, in fact very funny and sad at the same time!

That is very true but, there are also many other factors that pilots end up getting screwed over, some I can emphasize with. Companies that have to restructure because of poor management or not and then have to rely on crews freezing or rolling-back wages as part of the restructuring. Imagine the poor guy who has a mortgage, bills coming at them and a family to support, what does he do? Its a tough position for sure!

The little slime-ball who says I will work for free or do what ever else for less or for free should in my opinion be banned and these are the people that hurt us, hurt the industry! It only takes one or a few to start the ball rolling and before long as we've all seen some new measure or plan takes over across the industry. These pilots, along with the likes of Michael O'Leary & Robert Milton are an equally and usually a bigger problem to our profession!

But the issue of foreign pilots working in North America is NOT one can agree, understand or endorse! Its also one that our Government is allowing us to be completely abused by and they don't seem to care one bit!

[BTyyj]

A better question would be why, when the aviation industry was at its high, did the regulator bodies, and more specifically the pilot group, not implement some sort of system of limiting the number of CPLs that could be issued. This would result in a continuous shortage of pilots and in turn a higher demand for them, concluding in higher salaries and better benefits.

Looking at other professions such as law, engineering, medicine, accounting, etc., their regulatory bodies, unions, or professional groups have each creating a way to weed out many individuals wishing to enter them, thus limiting the supply, resulting in higher demand. Aviation must do the same. That being said, we might see a bit higher demand in the future with a decreasing numbers of pilots getting their CPLs as sanjet has already noted, however, that will most likely only last until supply and demand corrects it, and then it'll return to what it is at now.

As for pointing fingers at those who are "degrading this industry," I guarantee you that any other industry that is sought after where there is a greater supply of workers than there is a demand is much the same; aviation isn't special.

[Spokes]

And who chooses who gets to be a CPL? Easy to say limit them, but the devil is in the details.

[I WAS Birddog]

Birddog,

Not at all lost, in fact very funny and sad at the same time!

That is very true but, there are also many other factors that pilots end up getting screwed over, some I can emphasize with. Companies that have to restructure because of poor management or not and then have to rely on crews freezing or rolling-back wages as part of the restructuring. Imagine the poor guy who has a mortgage, bills coming at them and a family to support, what does he do? Its a tough position for sure!

The little slime-ball who says I will work for free or do what ever else for less or for free should in my opinion be banned and these are the people that hurt us, hurt the industry! It only takes one or a few to start the ball rolling and before long as we've all seen some new measure or plan takes over across the industry. These pilots, along with the likes of Michael O'Leary & Robert Milton are an equally and usually a bigger problem to our profession!

But the issue of foreign pilots working in North America is NOT one can agree, understand or endorse! Its also one that our Government is allowing us to be completely abused by and they don't seem to care one bit!

Agreed and understood. 23 years in this industry and 14 of them on this site...nothing much has changed. I've 'yelled' at hundreds of people on here. From the good old JetsGo days to foreign pilots being 'allowed' in and taking Canadian jobs. I thought I was helping in the mindset 'revolution' and evolution of our Canadian industry. Nope. Didn't take off like the Egypt's or Syria's of the world like I expected.

My Conclusion; I don't care any more. I say that with a smile and satisfaction in surrendering to the fact that it's useless. Because the only difference between us and the slaves of Egypt is the size of the bricks we have to carry uphill to build THEIR pyramids. The task masters whip leaves deep scars.

I'm content in what I do and where I work with the people that come across my path. Find your own niche in the industry and enjoy.

Oh...and by the way...JOIN MY CULT YOU MOFO'S https://twitter.com/iwasbirddog

[cj555]

And who chooses who gets to be a CPL? Easy to say limit them, but the devil is in the details.

The same method would be used as in other governing bodies such as Accountants, Lawyers, Engineers etc.

Its called pre-requisits, entrance requirements and minimum grades.

For example, if the requirement to start a CPL was:
Grade 12 (or equivalent) Math & Physics with a minimum grade of B- to qualify,
Standardized Testing (similar to LSATS or GMAT exams) to standardize all applicants and only pick the top candidates above a certain grade point,
Minimum GPA (grades) that must be acheived during the CPL/MIFR program.

If you added restrictions like that, many people wouldn't even apply to write the standardized test due to lack of prerequisits, some wouldn't score high enough on the standardized testing and be weeded out early, others would be weeded out during the CPL course due to low grades. The result? A restricted flow of people being training as commercial pilots.

So you asked who would decide who gets to be a CPL? It would you YOU (the students) who decides. IE How bad do they want it?

[Cat Driver]

For example, if the requirement to start a CPL was:
Grade 12 (or equivalent) Math & Physics with a minimum grade of B- to qualify,
Standardized Testing (similar to LSATS or GMAT exams) to standardize all applicants and only pick the top candidates above a certain grade point,
Minimum GPA (grades) that must be acheived during the CPL/MIFR program.

Which would have prevented me from becoming a pilot.

Would aviation have been better off had I been denied the chance to fly for a living?

[akoch]

Why is there so many of us in this Profession OK with all the degradation of pay, benefits and working conditions. I understand that if I don't want to work at a certain company than don't apply and all this stuff, to a point. But it's really and insult to us as professionals. As from my understanding all other professions are gaining ground in the pay/benefits/working conditions categories.

Pilots are bending over because??

The NA economy is not doing great, generally speaking. This is not specific to the aviation. I can speak to the IT/High-Tech, where the pay is not exactly degrading (though it is for some) these days, but the wages have not kept up with the inflation. And are more or less unchanged for the last 10 years, with many people unable to easily switch jobs expecting higher (or often even the same) wage.
It is not drastically different for most industries as well all over the continent.

[Changes in Latitudes]

Agreed and understood. 23 years in this industry and 14 of them on this site...nothing much has changed. I've 'yelled' at hundreds of people on here. From the good old JetsGo days to foreign pilots being 'allowed' in and taking Canadian jobs. I thought I was helping in the mindset 'revolution' and evolution of our Canadian industry. Nope. Didn't take off like the Egypt's or Syria's of the world like I expected.

My Conclusion; I don't care any more. I say that with a smile and satisfaction in surrendering to the fact that it's useless. Because the only difference between us and the slaves of Egypt is the size of the bricks we have to carry uphill to build THEIR pyramids. The task masters whip leaves deep scars.

I'm content in what I do and where I work with the people that come across my path. Find your own niche in the industry and enjoy.

Oh...and by the way...JOIN MY CULT YOU MOFO'S https://twitter.com/iwasbirddog

Well there it is, early 2013 and post of the year goes right there. I'd like to carry numerous copies of this around with me so I could staple it to the forehead of anything that has ray-bans, pulls a rolley-bag and thinks a mere "love for aviation" pays the mortgage. Birdy said it right, build your niche. If you have to carry a brick uphill to build THEIR pyramid, just be sure to cash in on the sweat equity every once in a while, and use that brick to be one step higher.

[Diadem]

Well there it is, early 2013 and post of the year goes right there. I'd like to carry numerous copies of this around with me so I could staple it to the forehead of anything that has ray-bans, pulls a rolley-bag and thinks a mere "love for aviation" pays the mortgage. Birdy said it right, build your niche. If you have to carry a brick uphill to build THEIR pyramid, just be sure to cash in on the sweat equity every once in a while, and use that brick to be one step higher.

And where can one buy one of these bricks? Can I have one if I work the ramp for you? I'll even sign a two-year bond if I can have the privilege of carrying it up the pyramid for you.

[Changes in Latitudes]

Well there it is, early 2013 and post of the year goes right there. I'd like to carry numerous copies of this around with me so I could staple it to the forehead of anything that has ray-bans, pulls a rolley-bag and thinks a mere "love for aviation" pays the mortgage. Birdy said it right, build your niche. If you have to carry a brick uphill to build THEIR pyramid, just be sure to cash in on the sweat equity every once in a while, and use that brick to be one step higher.

And where can one buy one of these bricks? Can I have one if I work the ramp for you? I'll even sign a two-year bond if I can have the privilege of carrying it up the pyramid for you.

Sweat equity involves working hard, not working stupid. Any idea what the difference between the two are?
(I know you're being facetious, I'm responding more to that mentality)

In the end, aviation deserves pilots and pilots deserve aviation.

[iflyforpie]

And who chooses who gets to be a CPL? Easy to say limit them, but the devil is in the details.

The same method would be used as in other governing bodies such as Accountants, Lawyers, Engineers etc.

Its called pre-requisits, entrance requirements and minimum grades.

For example, if the requirement to start a CPL was:
Grade 12 (or equivalent) Math & Physics with a minimum grade of B- to qualify,
Standardized Testing (similar to LSATS or GMAT exams) to standardize all applicants and only pick the top candidates above a certain grade point,
Minimum GPA (grades) that must be acheived during the CPL/MIFR program.

If you added restrictions like that, many people wouldn't even apply to write the standardized test due to lack of prerequisits, some wouldn't score high enough on the standardized testing and be weeded out early, others would be weeded out during the CPL course due to low grades. The result? A restricted flow of people being training as commercial pilots.

So you asked who would decide who gets to be a CPL? It would you YOU (the students) who decides. IE How bad do they want it?

There already is a system like that. The smart people get the good paying jobs and the dumb ones are left flying for crappy wages or unemployed. Even though I might not be the smartest one in the bunch (I would have failed your requirement for Math.... though I aced Physics right through College), I've managed to always be able to work for good people for a good wage.

All having no requirements other than a CPL does is make for entirely new markets that otherwise wouldn't exist if they had to actually pay their pilots. The pilots who whore themselves out are working for whores... and the customers of those whores will simply disappear if the prices go up.

[Instructor_Mike]

And who chooses who gets to be a CPL? Easy to say limit them, but the devil is in the details.

The same method would be used as in other governing bodies such as Accountants, Lawyers, Engineers etc.

Its called pre-requisits, entrance requirements and minimum grades.

For example, if the requirement to start a CPL was:
Grade 12 (or equivalent) Math & Physics with a minimum grade of B- to qualify,
Standardized Testing (similar to LSATS or GMAT exams) to standardize all applicants and only pick the top candidates above a certain grade point,
Minimum GPA (grades) that must be acheived during the CPL/MIFR program.

If you added restrictions like that, many people wouldn't even apply to write the standardized test due to lack of prerequisits, some wouldn't score high enough on the standardized testing and be weeded out early, others would be weeded out during the CPL course due to low grades. The result? A restricted flow of people being training as commercial pilots.

So you asked who would decide who gets to be a CPL? It would you YOU (the students) who decides. IE How bad do they want it?

I disagree. TBH, my grades in high school were not great and they dropped steadily once I started flying. Why? Because literature, calculus, music class, drama etc had nothing to do with flying.

To go from ab initio to CPL Multi IFR, you have 4 flight tests and 3 written exams. You still have 2 more when you get to ATPL. Having 1-2 more exams in there won't change things a lot IMO. Besides, being able to memorize a textbook or calculate pi to 100 decimals doesn't give you the skill to deadstick an A320 into a river with no casualties or a 767 into Gimli on my birthday

[xysn]

And who chooses who gets to be a CPL? Easy to say limit them, but the devil is in the details.

The same method would be used as in other governing bodies such as Accountants, Lawyers, Engineers etc.

Its called pre-requisits, entrance requirements and minimum grades.
IE How bad do they want it?

Engineers do not limit their own numbers, and you can work as an engineer with having a professional engineering licence.

I think the 50k cost of training (CPL Multi IFR) is a pretty decent entrance requirement, especially considering the wages at the end of that road.

Fact is there are many people who would love fly for a living, even on survival wages. Flying is just too damn fun.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

Which would have prevented me from becoming a pilot.

Would aviation have been better off had I been denied the chance to fly for a living?

The better question is, why are you making this about you?

[Cat Driver]

The better question is, why are you making this about you?

It is not about me...I was pointing out that limiting people becoming pilots based on a set formal education will prevent a lot of people from becoming pilots for no good reason.

If anyone can pass the exams and flight tests to be a pilot they have demonstrated they have sufficient education.

Or to put it more clearly.....most anyone can become a pilot because it really is not all that difficult.

Staying alive after you start flying for a living is a bit more difficult......and formal education is not the answer.

[beaverbob]

Cat is right. If I had to meet the standards as mentioned above I would not have made it. I believe, like Cat, that formal education does not create a better or more natural pilot.
So far I have managed over 40 years in this business. Thank God I only had to learn to fly to become a pilot. I have always had a descent wage and managed to feed a family and have the things I need. All that on a commercial VFR license. (I had an IFR rating for about 5 years but hardly ever used it.)
The best way to advance in this business is to develop a good reputation right off the bat, on your first job. Even if on a dock or a ramp. Your referrence from your first job is the one that gets you the second job. Don't blow it.
Bob

[Dh8Classic]

Why should we have artificial restrictions on who gets a CPL. In the old days when jobs were more protected, the fortunate few got to fly the cool stuff. You were military and your buddies hired you. Maybe you were a Seneca wonder boy and got the good job. Guys like me....poor uncorrected eyesight and no post secondary were screwed.I have good study habits and have learned well in stuff that interested me that was aviation related but didn't do well in boring chemistry class, and Finite Math, calculus, etc.

But times changed just in time for me and deregulation happened and ridiculous eyesight requirements were dropped. Now all kinds of jobs opened up for guys like me. Yeah, the guys at the top who were really highly paid along with their coworkers took a hit but ticket prices came down and a lot more passengers got to fly at a decent price.

As for me....I was able to get a flying career flying some of the coolest aircraft around thanks to the opening up of the system, none of which include my Avcanada handle.

Sorry boys, your exclusive club is gone. A good job is nice but you ain't gonna achieve it by screwing guys like me with artificial restrictions.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

To Cat Driver, BeaverBob et al. I don't think the original poster was trying to take anything away from those who are/were pilots who had no formal education. Some of my best instructors growing up who had seen it all and done it all didn't have a post-secondary education and maybe only had a high school diploma. What I think the poster is getting at is that to protect our profession where flight schools pump out the students puppy-mill style, there needs to be a higher set of criteria to limit the sheer volume of pilots flooding the workplace. Because is supple exceeds demand, we are an excess commodity and employers know that and will take advantage of us, and we ourselves will stab each other in the back to get that coveted first job.

I'm not saying a 3.0 GPA or a a high school education to the University entrance level alone makes a better pilot. However, for those who really wish to become one, it raises your own standards bar, setting an appropriate tone for a life of written and flight tests, recurrent groundschools where you need an "X" mark to pass and annual PPC's.

[mcrit]

DHC-1 Jockey,

What you have is a good idea with a poor plan for implementation. The good idea is to reduce the output of the FTUs. The bad idea is to do it via superfluous academic requirements. Academic study does not a good pilot make. You really don't need much more than grade 10 math to be a line pilot (mind you, a bit of trig sure helps).
The way to implement your plan is to up the standards for the CPL and ATPL. Demand better hands and feet on the CPL flight test; tighten the tolerances for the exercises, introduce more energy management manoeuvres. As for the ATPL, introduce a real flight test for it.

[ReserveTank]

Pilots are bending over because??

Because the next guy is looking to snap up your job and lower the working conditions for you. Operators know this and build it into their business. There's no consensus among pilots on hours of work, dangerous weather, or pay. The next guy will fudge his duty time and duck below minimums all for a little less money and all for a chance to touch the yoke of your plane. Due to this known lack of consensus, organizations such as ATAC and the "pilot college" can assemble member operators in order to ensure this condition continues.

[cj555]

To Cat Driver, BeaverBob et al. I don't think the original poster was trying to take anything away from those who are/were pilots who had no formal education. What I think the poster is getting at is that to protect our profession where flight schools pump out the students puppy-mill style, there needs to be a higher set of criteria to limit the sheer volume of pilots flooding the workplace. Because is supple exceeds demand, we are an excess commodity and employers know that and will take advantage of us

Thanks for clearing that up DHC-1.

Indeed, I was merely responding to a question about "how could the number of CPL's be restricted?" The academic restrictions idea was purely an example of how it might be done. I am not advocating for or against increasing the academic requirements to become a pilot.

Perhaps with the predicted "looming pilot shortage" the oversupply of pilots will be reduced, and the market will solve the issue on its own.