Airline who allows you to fly manually???

[traveller123]

i was talking with fellow pilots and they were telling me that after the King Air you can't fly the aircraft manually because the SOP's require the use of the AP

is that right? if so there is any airline in Canada where you can fly the aircraft from t/o to touchdown????

[tbaylx]

RVSM requirements mandate the use of autopilot (pitch mode as a minimum) in cruise flight, so you can't hand fly. Not only that, its tiring (pitch sensitive at altitude) and boring in cruise, so why bother?

Most canadian airlines will allow you to hand fly the climbs and descents and approaches if you so desire, and that is where you get most of the actual flying anyway. Some airlines more than others i would guess due to the nature of the operations and the equipment involved. I don't know of any canadian airline that actively discourages it and bans visual approaches such as Emirates or others do.

That being said you have to pick where you do it, if you are operating out of a busy airport with a complicated SID and you chose to hand fly your pilot monitoring is going to be awfully pissed off at you.

[TopperHarley]

When I was at Jazz, hand-flying on the dash was very common. I remember some guys doing the yyz-yxu flights manually.

[ant_321]

Who cares. There's nothing enjoyable about hand flying in cruise for 8 hours a day. Autopilot makes flying much more enjoyable.

[Takeoff OK]

Any airline that truly cares about safety will encourage flying the airplane at all levels of automation, including none, when weather and workload permits. As stated above, hand flying in cruise in RVSM is a no-no; not to mention tiring and pointless.

At a previous airline we used to have a short hop from Saginaw to Detroit where we topped out at 250 or 270. When the weather was good, we'd turn everything off and see if we still knew what the heck we were doing. Many of us would also turn off the AP and ATHR anytime we were below 10,000', unless we were going into New York, Chicago or Atlanta.

Automation leads to complacency and incompetence. An airline that demands full automation all of the time is just counting down their days to their next accident or incident.

[indieadventurer]

There are a few 704 airlines in Canada that have fleets without AP and fly manually wheels up to down. Bearskin, Perimeter and Georgian come to mind off the top of my head.

[True North]

I'm not aware of any airline that mandates AP all the time, although there may be some. CAT 3 approaches must be flown with an AP I know WestJet RNP approaches must be as well but I know they encourage hand flying when the conditions warrant and I'm pretty sure it's the same at Air Canada.

[Galaxy]

I've always been under the assumption that you must have a functional autopilot to fly in rvsm airspace. With that being said, if your ap is functional (not u/s) can you not hand fly within rvsm if you so choose to?

[Krimson]

No, the AP must be operational and operating in RVSM airspace. You cannot hand-fly in this airspace.

[countryhick]

No A/P, no RVSM.

Cant speak for other companies, but for mine, all CAT 3's ( no autoland....) are required to be handflown with the HUD.

[tbaylx]

No A/P, no RVSM.

Cant speak for other companies, but for mine, all CAT 3's ( no autoland....) are required to be handflown with the HUD.

Not quite..you can fly with an autopilot roll channel MEL'd and inop, but the pitch channel must function for RVSM operations.

[flyingmaverick]

AP is there for a reason , if you want hand fly then become an instructor , that too you have to give most of the flying to the student as they are learning

[Krimson]

AP is there for a reason , if you want hand fly then become an instructor , that too you have to give most of the flying to the student as they are learning

It is there for a reason, but that reason is not to become reliant on it. It is good to get your hands and feet working once in a while to avoid complacency...not just below 400.

[countryhick]

Ok, correct, sort of.

Perhaps I should have stated "According to my company approved MEL"

Others may be different.

If the A/P system is u/s, flight in rvsm is prohibited

1 or both Flight Directors may be inop, A/P is not to be engaged, flight in rvsm is prohibited.

Individual Flight Director MODES may be inop as long as altitude hold functions normally. A/P may be used , rvsm is not affected.

Good review of the books on a Sunday morning...

[Inverted2]

I've always been under the assumption that you must have a functional autopilot to fly in rvsm airspace. With that being said, if your ap is functional (not u/s) can you not hand fly within rvsm if you so choose to?

I know of a cruiser who decided to hand fly in RVSM but it didn't work out too good for them once the skipper was informed!

[ogopogo]

http://airlinepilotchatter.blogspot.ca/

[twinpratts]

I routinely hand fly the Being through 10,000 on departure, and can disengage the autopilot in descent as much as I want to...

[cj555]

http://airlinepilotchatter.blogspot.ca/

Really interesting article!

[Biff]

No, the AP must be operational and operating in RVSM airspace. You cannot hand-fly in this airspace.

You can hand fly in RVSM airspace, or at least I have never been able to find a regulation saying you can't.

[Galaxy]

@Biff, that is what I'm thinking too. All I've ever read is you must have an operational AP. nothing about it having to be on.

[ahramin]

d. During cleared transition between levels, the aircraft should not be allowed to overshoot or undershoot the cleared flight level by more than 150 ft (45 m);

Note. It is recommended that the level off be accomplished using the altitude capture feature of the automatic altitude-control system, if installed.

e. An automatic altitude-control system should be operative and engaged during level cruise, except when circumstances such as the need to retrim the aircraft or turbulence require disengagement. In any event, adherence to cruise altitude should be done by reference to one of the two primary altimeters;

[60N30W]

According to the A330 SOP/QRH

" The autopilot must be engaged during CRUISE and FLIGHT LEVEL CHANGE"

This comes from the QRH section "Synthesis of equipment failures in RVSM"

Remember you are not the only one in the sky so best to keep the autopilot on at FL350, want to hand fly go rent a Cessna 172.

Regards

60N30W

[Takeoff OK]

According to the A330 SOP/QRH

" The autopilot must be engaged during CRUISE and FLIGHT LEVEL CHANGE"

This comes from the QRH section "Synthesis of equipment failures in RVSM"

Remember you are not the only one in the sky so best to keep the autopilot on at FL350, want to hand fly go rent a Cessna 172.

Regards

60N30W

I think what you meant to say is: If you want to hand fly do it below RVSM, when weather and workload permit.

[ahramin]

It's actually a simple concept. If you want to REDUCE accidents, concentrate on enforcing SOPs and automation use at all times for everything. This has been demonstrated to be the most effective and efficient way to increase safety.

However, if you want to ELIMINATE accidents, you need to encourage and train a whole pile of stuff, including piloting the aircraft, systems knowledge, airmanship, and aviation experience for the rare cases when the SOPs and the automation aren't going to bring you home.

[Biff]

d. During cleared transition between levels, the aircraft should not be allowed to overshoot or undershoot the cleared flight level by more than 150 ft (45 m);

Note. It is recommended that the level off be accomplished using the altitude capture feature of the automatic altitude-control system, if installed.

e. An automatic altitude-control system should be operative and engaged during level cruise, except when circumstances such as the need to retrim the aircraft or turbulence require disengagement. In any event, adherence to cruise altitude should be done by reference to one of the two primary altimeters;

So I still haven't seen a regulation that prohibits hand flying in RVSM airspace. The above mentions that it "should" be on for level flight and it is recommended that the level off be accomplished using the altitude capture feature, if installed.

Irregardless of the above, and if we take it that the quoted sections mandate the use of autopilot for level off and cruise(which I do think is a good idea and the intent of the regulations), there is still a large portion of the climb or descent in RVSM airspace that can be hand flown. I would argue that there is little risk of hand flying the aircraft at those times, and may even keep the crew more engaged and alert.