College of Pilots.

This forum has been developed to discuss aviation related topics.

Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, I WAS Birddog

Chuck Ellsworth
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3074
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:49 am
Location: Always moving

College of Pilots.

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

What is the status of the College of Pilots?
---------- ADS -----------
 
FrontEnd
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:54 pm

Re: College of Pilots.

Post by FrontEnd »

You're kidding right?
. . wrote:What is the status of the College of Pilots?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Roar
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 277
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:14 pm

Re: College of Pilots.

Post by Roar »

Somewhere around 945 members, planning to have the first elected board this fall.
You can also check out their website or even join up.
---------- ADS -----------
 
sanjet
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 920
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 8:54 am

Re: College of Pilots.

Post by sanjet »

Please keep spreading the word. We're getting closer.

http://www.collegeofpilots.ca/
---------- ADS -----------
 
ajet32
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 301
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 6:57 pm
Location: YYC

Re: College of Pilots.

Post by ajet32 »

Can somebody please explain to me what is the up side of this college of pilots.

I have been flying for just about 30 years and I am not sure I see the need / rational.

Oh I fly for a Flag carrier just not Canada's and I am a Canadian.
---------- ADS -----------
 
xsbank
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5655
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 4:00 pm
Location: "The Coast"

Re: College of Pilots.

Post by xsbank »

Ajet, if you just do a search there is hours and hours of "light" reading on here about the college, unless the mods got to it...
---------- ADS -----------
 
Meatservo
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2577
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:07 pm
Location: Negative sequencial vortex

Re: College of Pilots.

Post by Meatservo »

I think one of the attractive things about a body that governs things such as ethics, standards, etc, is that it is one of the things that makes a difference between an occupation being considered by society at large as "professional" versus "semi-professional". Being in a "professional" occupation pays dividends, for example when you go to get a mortgage at the bank! (Believe it or not). It would be nice to have a group that we could belong to and create consensus about things like pay levels, and ethics and standards, and maybe even how many new pilots get trained every year, and putting a stop to repugnancies like "pay to fly" programs and training bonds.

I think it's unfortunate that it was decided to adopt the name "college of pilots" because, even though the word is being used perfectly appropriately, it gets some peoples' backs up when they read the word "college". "Hey, I ain't been to no college, and I done jest fine" "we don't take kindly to none of you college boys around here!

It would probably rankle less with these guys if it was called something a little smoother, something like London's "guild of air navigators" or something. Ironically, it would sound more professional. I believe the biggest opposition to the movement is the group of guys who are stubbornly and perversely proud of their lack of post-secondary education, and who don't understand that the word "college" doesn't necessarily mean "a post secondary educational institution" and it doesn't mean you're going to be made fun of or found wanting if you try to join it without a degree or something. "Guild" or "Association" might have been a wiser choice to be more inclusive towards those who are annoyed by or have an inferiority complex as a result of "colleges" presuming to train aeroplane pilots.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Instructor_Mike
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 157
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:40 pm
Location: Manitoba

Re: College of Pilots.

Post by Instructor_Mike »

Meatservo wrote: "Guild" or "Association" might have been a wiser....
The Spice must flow.

Image

Sorry, I had to. :-)
---------- ADS -----------
 
Meatservo
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2577
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:07 pm
Location: Negative sequencial vortex

Re: College of Pilots.

Post by Meatservo »

Well, this College thingy is going to wind up being someone's "Gom Jabbar" anyway...
---------- ADS -----------
 
Mostly Harmless
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 397
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 9:10 am
Location: Betelgeuse

Re: College of Pilots.

Post by Mostly Harmless »

Meatservo wrote: It would be nice to have a group that we could belong to and create consensus about things like pay levels, and ethics and standards, and maybe even how many new pilots get trained every year, and putting a stop to repugnancies like "pay to fly" programs and training bonds.
I agree with everything except this: and maybe even how many new pilots get trained every year

And just who decides who gets to enter the bar and who doesn't? No matter what system you put in place, eventually it breaks down into a popularity contest or nepotism. I consider it highly hypocritical of anyone with a pilots license standing at the gate saying "not you." I got mine, now you get none.
Meatservo wrote: I think it's unfortunate that it was decided to adopt the name "college of pilots" because, even though the word is being used perfectly appropriately, it gets some peoples' backs up when they read the word "college". "Hey, I ain't been to no college, and I done jest fine" "we don't take kindly to none of you college boys around here!


Pot/kettle. Chip/shoulder.
Meatservo wrote: It would probably rankle less with these guys if it was called something a little smoother, something like London's "guild of air navigators" or something. Ironically, it would sound more professional. I believe the biggest opposition to the movement is the group of guys who are stubbornly and perversely proud of their lack of post-secondary education, and who don't understand that the word "college" doesn't necessarily mean "a post secondary educational institution" and it doesn't mean you're going to be made fun of or found wanting if you try to join it without a degree or something. "Guild" or "Association" might have been a wiser choice to be more inclusive towards those who are annoyed by or have an inferiority complex as a result of "colleges" presuming to train aeroplane pilots.
Wow, all this and an overwhelming sense of superiority displayed with contempt and condescension. I certainly hope guys just like you decide who will and who will not be allowed into your club. I can't imagine for the life of me, with such a positive attitude of inclusion, why people might question such an organization.

Any valid point you hoped to make here is so buried in bitterness and hatred that the point is lost.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Meatservo
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2577
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:07 pm
Location: Negative sequencial vortex

Re: College of Pilots.

Post by Meatservo »

It's not, though. It's just that throughout the entire previous discussion about this "college", (which you might or might not have noticed I didn't bother to participate in), the idea for a professional association was met with nothing but contempt by a large number of people who just couldn't or wouldn't get past their hangups about the word "college". Go back and read the many-page-long thread again. You'll see what I mean. Intelligent debate about the merits of a professional association was totally choked by statements just like "I never got past grade ten, I don't need a college". Maybe I'm wrong; I'll go read the thread again myself, but my impression was that the word "college" was the choke point for many people whom I would have previously thought would have welcomed a governing body of some kind.

I think you're making a mistake with your statements in your last post. I'm not bitter at all: things have worked out pretty well for me, and maybe that's why I find it difficult to get off my ass and participate in the "college" idea myself. It is frustrating seeing so much negativity towards the project however, when I have a hard time understanding why people choose to lampoon it without really considering what the organizers are hoping to gain.

Also I feel compelled to point out that I don't necessarily support restricting the production of new pilots. I just included it because there are people who believe that it would improve working conditions, therefore I think it bears discussion. Just think, if you and I were members of some kind of association, our debate on the subject might actually be taken seriously and listened to by people other than a bunch of AvCanada guys who mostly come here for the fights, myself included. I haven't really thought about it, although I do confess I think sometimes seeing the lack of ability some new graduates have, I have pondered what would happen if there were fewer of them, and it took longer and cost more money to qualify. I do see that this is a hypocritical attitude, but there is a point to be made either way.

So hey, man, cool it with the hatred. I think you misread me just there. On the other hand I suppose I do feel some contempt for people who uphold their lack of education as a token of moral and intellectual superiority. I have a lack of education too, but you won't catch me boasting about it.
---------- ADS -----------
 
TomM
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 6:45 am

Re: College of Pilots.

Post by TomM »

Hello All,

The College continues to move forward, slow and steady. We sit just shy of 1,000 members at this moment, after having opened our website for membership 8 August 2012.

As far as what's in a name, perhaps it is useful to visit the definition of the word "College". Webster's 4th definition is "an organized body of persons engaged in a common pursuit or having common interests or duties."

Incidentally, the Guild mentioned above in this thread is actually going through a name change to become an "Honourable Company". I've no idea what the implications are of that change.

While there are those in our midst without degrees or even high school- we say BIG DEAL! The fact that a pilot has done the self study for a CPL or an ATPL is something to be recognized and acknowledged. It just doesn't register as an issue in our development.

What does register is conduct, mentoring, fellowship and promotion of professionalism. Those things all relate to ethics and morals and I don't care how much schoolin you have, they also relate to character and common sense. Those are the items we hope to promote and elevate in this endeavour.

There has also been mention in the past that the College is something that will be rammed down the throats of pilots and will lead to more oversight and scrutiny. Again, off the mark. We aspire to take the profession to a "self-governance" model where we would all be masters of our own destiny, within the confines of the regulations and our code of conduct AND we would all be keeping an eye on one another and ourselves to ensure we are doing the best we can. The upper levels of the organization will be filled with respected, experienced members of the profession.

The big question is "are we ready as a group" for this sort of change- is this effort premature? What we are trying to do right now is to get pilots to consider what a self-governance model would look like. We're doing this by getting pilots to look at the history of commercial aviation and view the changes that have taken place, where we are right now and where it may go if we don't do something like the College. That is the task right now, one of careful education and understanding of what it means to be a true profession and how it would benefit the industry. Get the majority to understand that and then move toward legislation. That process or evolution avoids the ramming down throats scenario.

One last comment. We have no aspirations to limit entrance. If anything, even if industry projections are out by a country mile, we all need to think of ways to promote this industry as a viable career choice. To me it seems truly pathetic that there are those in our midst that discourage the young to pursue this industry. That is a defeatist attitude that will take this industry into a self fulfilling prophecy of continued mediocrity and stagnation. If there's something the College wishes to discourage, that would be it.

I hope this helps clear the skies of our vision.

Best regards,
Tom Machum
CPPC President
Check out the website at http://www.collegeofpilots.ca
---------- ADS -----------
 
Chuck Ellsworth
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3074
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:49 am
Location: Always moving

Re: College of Pilots.

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

Thanks TomM.

That was what I was trying to do....get this back front and center.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Mostly Harmless
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 397
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 9:10 am
Location: Betelgeuse

Re: College of Pilots.

Post by Mostly Harmless »

Fair enough; and a much more sober argument presented in a much better way.

I stopped reading the original College thread because it was filled with circular arguments and both sides had valid points that are unlikely to be resolved because it isn't about right and wrong, it's about beliefs.... and really, how many people do you know that are willing to question their beliefs?

My point about the bitterness in your previous post still stand. You have explained why you are frustrated about it but, it's still full of some pretty condescending paragraphs.

People disagree, and when it's something that is personally important, the stakes can go pretty high. I like the idea of a professional college/association/guild/whatever to improve our lot in life. I do see the merits of standing together as a group, I also see the dangers inherent in such systems. For those that don't see the merits, I can say that the world we have today would not exist without large numbers of people cooperating towards goals... individualism can only take you so far. For those that don't see danger lurking inside such organizations, I can say that I can see that danger and know that these beasts can become political. The only defence is active participation in the organization... and that's not always easy when you have a life to run.

As for limiting the number of new pilots, well the market is doing that just fine... the licence is getting prohibitively expensive for the majority of people. I have real problems with that concept and I will always voice my concerns on that issue. I, having a licence, have no right at all to tell someone else that they can't have one. If they pass the training and tests, then they deserve the licence.

One thing I will say, never mistake education for intelligence. A government issued piece of paper is not a measure of intellect... not everyone fits into the mould of the traditional learning model.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by Mostly Harmless on Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mostly Harmless
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 397
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 9:10 am
Location: Betelgeuse

Re: College of Pilots.

Post by Mostly Harmless »

TomM wrote:The big question is "are we ready as a group" for this sort of change- is this effort premature?
Every journey begins with a single step. In this case, it's a big step but I think it is in the right direction. I'm sure you are stepping carefully.
TomM wrote:What does register is conduct, mentoring, fellowship and promotion of professionalism. Those things all relate to ethics and morals and I don't care how much schoolin you have, they also relate to character and common sense. Those are the items we hope to promote and elevate in this endeavour.

...

One last comment. We have no aspirations to limit entrance. If anything, even if industry projections are out by a country mile, we all need to think of ways to promote this industry as a viable career choice. To me it seems truly pathetic that there are those in our midst that discourage the young to pursue this industry. That is a defeatist attitude that will take this industry into a self fulfilling prophecy of continued mediocrity and stagnation. If there's something the College wishes to discourage, that would be it.

I hope this helps clear the skies of our vision.
Good. And thank you.
---------- ADS -----------
 
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 11306
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Hangry and crankypated

Re: College of Pilots.

Post by photofly »

Incidentally, the Guild mentioned above in this thread is actually going through a name change to become an "Honourable Company". I've no idea what the implications are of that change.
One of the primary purposes of the Guilds (which were for tradesmen, not "professionals") was to regulate who entered each trade. Heavy barriers to entry - like having to purchase and serve a long and expensive apprenticeship, having to travel (to serve as a journeyman) and produce a costly and difficult test work (a masterpiece) to be recognized as a master of your trade - limited the numbers and kept wages high.

Note the parallel between buying an apprenticeship and paying for your own type rating, or paying to fly right seat in a 737.

The Guild of Air Pilots and Air Navigators is a true trade guild, and one of the Livery Companies of the City of London.

For Pilots who want a professional organisation more like those for doctors and lawyers, they should be aware that the various professional colleges play a huge role in development of professional standards and take punitive sanctions against their members who misbehave. If you want to find out which doctors in Ontario have been investigated for bad behaviour, and which have had sanctions against them, you can look them up:
https://www.cpso.on.ca/publicregister/d ... px?id=2048. Needless to say, this is not a feature of their professional college that most doctors look on with pleasure.

Does the College of Pilots intend to wield the big stick, like other "professional" organisations?
---------- ADS -----------
 
URC
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 211
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2010 1:56 pm

Re: College of Pilots.

Post by URC »

Has anyone seen a cost benefit analysis of how much this "College" is going to cost to run ? Even with 10,000 pilot members I don't see how they could possibly afford the things they want to accomplish ? Based on cost alone the whole concept seems ridiculous to me. Maybe someone could provide some cost projections and funding proposals to demonstrate how this could possibly make any sense ?
---------- ADS -----------
 
MrWings
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1004
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 10:35 am

Re: College of Pilots.

Post by MrWings »

Our first Quarterly Report can be found in the members only section of the website under "Transparency".
:lol:
---------- ADS -----------
 
Chuck Ellsworth
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3074
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:49 am
Location: Always moving

Re: College of Pilots.

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

Let me explain something now.

At the moment there is no group in Canada to improve the industry for working pilots outside of the airline unions.

Who incidentally are not doing all that well at the moment.

I personally support the start up of a college of pilots.

Anything is better than nothing and this can be made to work with some support from the pilot group.

Cost should not be a problem as so far it is mostly successful working pilots trying to get it going.

If and when it gets actually working for the pilot group then of course cost will be a factor.

I can not think of many things worth while in life that is for free.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
x-wind
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 739
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2005 10:23 pm
Location: Around

Re: College of Pilots.

Post by x-wind »

Will review & perhaps sign up tonight.
---------- ADS -----------
 
TomM
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 6:45 am

Re: College of Pilots.

Post by TomM »

Some quick responses

Photofly:
The guild is indeed a livery corporation and there's a lot of history there. We have been in touch with their Canadian leadership and we sees parallels between our two initiatives and hope to build a solid, collaborative relationship with time.

The "big stick"? Yes, we do see that as an essential component of self-governance. However this isn't about a witch hunt or creating a harassment service; that isn't part of the vision. In essence, we see a point in the future where we are all encouraging one another and ourselves to do our best. If we as individuals choose not to, then a yet to be determined process would be activated to appropriately address whatever the problem was. In addition, we will also have on the front end a whole gamut of support opportunities that would hopefully show the way to best behaviour. The idea is that all of the support and mentoring and self discipline would hopefully address issues before they get out of hand. That would make the peer review panel an option of last resort.

I suppose too that the difference here is that the ramifications for misconduct in our world are much more personal in aviation. Doctors and lawyers can create havoc, but live to talk about it, if you get my drift.

URC
Cost- well, if this is successful to the point of achieving the legislation where all 24,000 fixed and rotary CPLs and ATPLs must be members, then if the fees were set at $240 (in essence $20/ month), that would be $5,760,000 per year of income. Is that enough? I don't know. I guess it really depends on what we as a group want from this and then we'll have to cost it out.

I believe that this is something that will be years in the making and it is my hope that in those building years we will end each year with money in the bank that can be put into a trust to draw interest on so that when this project becomes more serious and requires more funds, it will be supplemented by this interest.

MrWings
That is kind of ironic. Not every organization like this releases everything to the public. Of course it is released to the members. If you think it should be public, we'll consider it.

Happy landings,
Tom
---------- ADS -----------
 
Doc
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 9241
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:28 am

Re: College of Pilots.

Post by Doc »

They have no intention of improving working conditions/pay rates, for young pilots in Canada. They continue to say "this is a union responsibility...." For this reason alone, I'm out.
---------- ADS -----------
 
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 11306
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Hangry and crankypated

Re: College of Pilots.

Post by photofly »

That would make the peer review panel an option of last resort.
That's where it should be. As long as everyone knows it's there, somewhere.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
lionheart27
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 131
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:46 am

Re: College of Pilots.

Post by lionheart27 »

So, I read through lightly on the website
I have some questions if they can be clarified.
I agree with professionalism, rights, standards and justice.

1) Is this a union? association/ credit union?
2) Are you starting a pension fund?
3) Insurance based on dues/ membership fees? If I paid in I want it back even if entity dissolves.
4) Handle the pressing issues? First Jobs(scams). Hard-Work= Benefits. Proper Training on the job. Ludicris Training Bonds(not 1&2 yr bonds).
5) Companies that cheat the CARS? Pressure flying- Bad Wx, etc! Maintenance(the Red Green fix)

I'll leave it there. I think these are fair questions.

Cheers
---------- ADS -----------
 
TomM
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 6:45 am

Re: College of Pilots.

Post by TomM »

Lionheart27:
http://www.collegeofpilots.ca/faq/

Most should be answered there.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “General Comments”