I wouldn't want to see an 18 meter glider do that.

iflyforpie wrote:I wouldn't want to see an 18 meter glider do that.

Structural integrity an issue?

Structural integrity and high rolling and yawing inertia...

AC\DC wrote:

I'm curious what make and model he's flying. He said in the comments he pulls 8.5 G during some routines.

I'm curious what make and model he's flying. He said in the comments he pulls 8.5 G during some routines.

Hey Beef, I believe that he is flying a Swift S-1. Designed primarily for aerobatics, not as much soaring. I think there is a wingtip extension kit that extends the span into the 15m category to make a better soaring glider out of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swift_S-1

He's flying a Swift S-1. Not in production anymore. Stressed to +10 G/-7.5G , single seat, 410 kg Gross. 12.7 m wingspan. Pretty much the required equipment for unlimited level glider aerobatics. None registered in Canada. The MDM-1 Fox is the closest 2 place equivalent, there are a few in the US, one is at Arizona Soaring at Estrella near Phoenix.
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Off the top of my head, the highest performance aerobatic gliders in Canada that I am aware of are the DG-505 at SOSA in Ontario & the DG-1000 at Cu-Nim in Calgary. Stressed (only) to +7/-3.5 Gs, so not as highly stressed, and can't do as much negative/outside work.
The DG is certified for
1. Spin, 2. Loop, 3. Stall Turn, 4. Inverted Flight, 5. 1/2 Loop - 1/2 Roll, 6. 1/2 Roll - 1/2 Loop, 7. 1/2 positive Flick/Snap Roll to Inverted - 1/2 Positive Loop, 8. 1/2 Negative Snap/flick Roll to upright & combinations thereof.

Canadian Gliding/Soaring clubs that I am aware of that are doing aerobatics are SOSA & York in Ontario. Edmonton Gliding Club, & perhaps more pertinent to Beef, Cu-Nim in Calgary are working on establishing aerobatic courses. Cu-Nim might be able to offer aerobatic training/rides next year. Their mounts will be the ASK-21 (+6/-3G) and of course, the DG-1000.

Hi Jamesel. That is neat to know about those other gliders. I have a quick question for you, as you seem to know a bit about these things

The H-101 Salto that Manfred Radius flies, how does it stack up as far as aerobatic capabilities. I know that he is really enjoyable to watch perform, but he doesn't do as much as the guys in Europe flying the Swift S-1. I suspect that the Salto is not as capable, but I am curious as to where is would sit in comparison to the others you mentioned.

Cu-nim told me I was too heavy to go gliding. I was so upset I ate a large pizza.

where is would sit in comparison to the others

I'll give a shot, however, keep in mind my opinions are uncontaminated by personal experience in the Salto (too Tall ) or the Fox & Swift (too Cheap ).

The Swift is the Extra/Su-31 of the glider aerobatics scene - Last World Unlimited Aerobatic Glider Championships - of 27 entries 21 were Swifts, 6 were Foxes, & one SZD-59. If any glider can do it, the Swift can too.

The Salto H-101 is the stock Pitts Special S-1S, capable of doing almost everything, but the ailerons run out of energy at low speeds, and the advanced gyroscopics are a lot of work or out of reach.
The Salto is certified for: +7/-5 G, Loops, Stall Turns, Upright & Inverted Spins, Immelmann, Split S, Tail Slides, Half Outside Loop from inverted, Outside loop from upright, Inside & Outside Flicks/Snaps, & Inside/Outside Cuban Eight (Pull Looping followed by Push Looping). Mainly, it's limitations derive from the fact that Hanle tried to maintain some soaring ability, so it does not have a symmetrical airfoil (NACA 64 IIRC). The size of both the wingspan and the ailerons were also compromised for soaring, therefore the aileron size & power are reduced. As has been alluded to earlier, the greater span and weight distribution reduces the rate of roll as a snap/flick is started. The Looping stuff is Good, Swift-like, The Rolling stuff - Not So Much.

The Swift has a symmetrical airfoil, shorter wings, bigger ailerons........

The DGs are like a stronger 7KCAB Citabria (150 hp & Inverted) - heavier controls, capable of most inside stuff, and the inverted stuff is pretty well limited to just flying inverted & a 1/2 Outside Snap/Flick to upright.

The ASK-21 is the 7ECA Citabria (118 hp & you don't wanna stay upside down for long). Inside stuff, inverted level flight (while you sink like a stone) and don't snap it.

If you were interested in more akro than the Loop, Stall Turn, Chandelle, (that is the all the standard "Limited Aerobatics" Gliders can do), and weren't 6'2 or taller, or rather wide, the Salto would be a great machine that would take a lot of flying, if ever, before you would get close to being limited by the aircraft. As well, the Salto should be able to take you to your Gold badges & (with Luck & Work) Diamonds.
Akro contest wise, in a Salto, you could compete and not score the worst in a World Advanced aerobatic, but you'll never win.
Airshow-wise, there's very little competition in glider aerobatic acts, & usually Joe Lunchpail is so impressed by the fact the glider went up more than once (WIDDOUT NO MOTOR!!!), that I feel there would be no advantage to spending the extra money on a Swift, if I could find a Salto (or a Pilatus B-4, I luvs me the B4). Spend it on tows......

The Swift is gonna be good for mebbe Silver & some Gold soaring badges, but assuming you got a modicum of talent, and a lot of practice, you could use one to win the World Unlimited Aerobatics Championships.

Although you think it'd work, thermalling inverted in sink doesn't translate into going up , though it's worth it to see the question marks over the other glider's canopies......

Hope this helps...

Cu-nim told me I was too heavy to go gliding

Yeah, both the ASK & the DG have a max of 110 kgs per seat, in addition to the overall W & B.

Is there any chance of hitting 230#? by next year, using a glider aerobatic ride as motivation?

Thread Drift Warning - Ignore as required.......
I wonder how long it's gonna take the aircraft manufacturers to wake up & realise that nowadays people are bigger in both height & weight, as compared to the '40s when the standards were first formalised & it seems like most planes were designed. I get it that small is efficient, but if I can't fit in it, I ain't learning on it, renting it or for that matter buying it either.

Nice comparison Jamesel. It works good for me as I am quite a bit more familiar with the powered aerobatic types. If I was ever to get into that sort of fun, the Salto would be a good fit for me at 5'10" and 180. But realistically, if I get into glider flying, it will be more for the soaring that aerobatics anyway I have my PPL though, so I at least get my flying fixes that way, just make more noise

I went for a ride a few years back with the Vernon BC gliding club in their Blanik, and that 45 minute flight was probably one of the most enjoyable flights I have ever been on. (The ride in the Su-29 with Jerzy was more FUN, but soaring silently above the beautiful north Okanagan.....awesome!) I have always wanted to fly gliders, and my dad used to fly a SGS 1-23 and a Blanik a long time back. Unfortunately, where I live, the closest gliding club has one glider and a winch, but the glider is a Blanik so it is now grounded, and even when they CAN fly, they only roll the equipment out about 1 weekend every summer. I think they are pretty much shut down, last I heard. The next closest is in Edmonton, about 7.5hrs drive away.

For me, something like a good ole' 1-26 would be plenty of fun. Easy to fly, decent soaring capability, cheap to buy and maintain. And you can throw the occasional loop at it.

Although you think it'd work, thermalling inverted in sink doesn't translate into going up , though it's worth it to see the question marks over the other glider's canopies......

Hmmmm, tell ya what.....I will try it with one of my R/C gliders and let you know how it works out

1-26 would be plenty of fun. Easy to fly, decent soaring capability, cheap to buy and maintain. And you can throw the occasional loop at it.

Yup, the 1-26 can be alot of fun, just don't tell people or let them see you looping any Schweizer, the factory does not permit aerobatics in any of their machines (up to the 1-35 anyways) any more.

Just adding 2 & 2, and getting 8, was the 1-23 a blue and white short wing, C-FZCJ? 1st Schweizer I flew, based in Red Deer, before it went up to GP.

Yup, the 1-26 can be alot of fun, just don't tell people or let them see you looping any Schweizer, the factory does not permit aerobatics in any of their machines (up to the 1-35 anyways) any more.

Well, I'll be. I didn't know they had started to frown on looping and rolling the old stuff. Learn something new every day

jamesel wrote: Is there any chance of hitting 230#? by next year, using a glider aerobatic ride as motivation?

It's possible. I'm hoping to get down to 235 this year and keep going.

Great! Good Luck & maybe see you out there!