Sunwing declares profits of 71 million last year

[Gilles Hudicourt]

http://affaires.lapresse.ca/economie/tr ... soleil.php

Sunwing declares profits of 71 million dollars last year and expects to make more this year. But cant afford to train Canadian pilots.

They increase their profits by:

Keeping un-employed Canadian pilots on Employment Insurance.

These un-employed pilots, who were paying significant amount of taxes when they were employed, are now collecting money from the government instead.

The foreign pilots who replace them pay not one cent of taxes in Canada.
They do not declare Canadian Revenue as they should.
They do not even contribute to EI or the the CPP even the law says they should.
They do not even apply for a Social Insurance Number as the law says they should.
Yet they were provided with a CIC-issued "work permit" allowing them to "work" in Canada. They consider that they work in Europe and are exempt from these requirements.

Meanwhile, other airlines have to train their pilots at company expense.

Is it Sunwing that is brilliant or is it the Canadian Tax payer which is stupid

[slowstream]

http://affaires.lapresse.ca/economie/tr ... soleil.php

Sunwing declares profits of 71 million dollars last year and expects to make more this year. But cant afford to train Canadian pilots.

They increase their profits by:

Keeping un-employed Canadain pillots on Employment Insurance
These un-employed pilots were paying significant amout of taxes when they were employed, are not collect money from the government.
The foreign pilots who replace them pay not one cent of taxes in Canada. They don not declare Canadian Revenue. They do not even contribute to EI or the the CPP even the law says they should.

Other airlines have to train their pilots at company expense.

Is it Sunwing that is brilliant or is it the Canadian Tax payer which is stupid

71 million in profits and they still have to bring in foreign worker!! That is disgusting!

BTW Gilles when I applied to Sunwing with my internal reference and being 737 typed and I could not even get an interview I was shocked.

During your interview you spoke about a 5 to 6 week course, I wouldn't have even required that, just a differences course of about a week, but I guess that would have cut too deep into their 71 Million dollar profits

[atpilot]

They were interviewing recently but I haven't heard of anyone getting hired. Are they doing this just to please HRDC and then go hire foreign pilots?

[Sasquash]

Are they doing this just to please HRDC and then go hire foreign pilots?

That would not happen if the regulators (HRDC, CIC and TC) actually got together and actually applied the legislation as opposed to just rubber stamp a foreign license and give them a free pass to a Canadian job.

Unfortunately, the right and doesn't know what the other(s) are doing...

[rudder]

Are they doing this just to please HRDC and then go hire foreign pilots?

That would not happen if the regulators (HRDC, CIC and TC) actually got together and actually applied the legislation as opposed to just rubber stamp a foreign license and give them a free pass to a Canadian job.

Unfortunately, the right and doesn't know what the other(s) are doing...

I would be willing to bet that for winter 2013/2014 that there will be no approvals for LMO's, FLVC's, or temporary work visas for foreign pilots. But there will be lots of wet leases from Europe.

Is that an improvement? Yes.

[BE20 Driver]

If guys like slowstream, and toeless still do not get an interview this can not be viewed as an improvement.

[wordstwice]

Sunwing has interviewed and hired Canadian pilots recently (within the last month or so)-Some were hired with a 737 rating and some without.

[confusedalot]

That sounds like alot of profit. Hard to verify since TUI only posts net performance results without detailing the numbers of individual business units.

[BE20 Driver]

Sunwing has interviewed and hired Canadian pilots recently (within the last month or so)-Some were hired with a 737 rating and some without.

I'd be curious to know how many? Give us some solid numbers. Also, is hiring continuing all summer long into the fall?

[ea306]

Just took a look at the latest published seniority list.
27 new pilots for March hired
20 new pilots for April hired
Total is 47 pilots so far... It's the 11th April today... I am not in the know how many more are being hired but those are the numbers published so far to the general Sunwing Pilot population. Judging by the roster patterns ....we need pilots...keep applying!

[Realitychex]

Wow. So let me get this straight.

Sunwing made a net profit of $71m last year by operating a couple of dozen -800's for 6 months in the winter and about half as many tails in the summer on chronically low yield routes, including a wet lease wide body to Europe, and WJ made $241m by operating an average of about 95 jets year round?

Something doesn't smell right here. I think I'll stick to believing audited statements instead of buying into the latest song and dance from a privately held corporation that can claim whatever they want at any time.

[ea306]

Your incredulity makes me chuckle.

TUi as a publicly traded company that publishes their portion of profits (49% stakeholder) paid by their investment in Sunwing Travel Group which as you correctly pointed out is private and therefore under no circumstances you would have the opportunity to see their financials.

Sunwing however keeps making the top 100 list in Canada year after year. Prior to the buy in of TUi into Sunwing, none of us had any clue as to the profitability of our company.

Your comparison of WS fleet size and profit vs. WG fleet size and profit is something I have often commented on away from this forum. But tell me, what does fleet size have to do with profitability? On that basis, does one expect AC to be more or less profitable? You are forgetting that Sunwing is a Tour Operator....and has an airline to provide part of the aviation component. WestJet is firstly an Airline and subsequent to that have a spin off Tour Operator business.

The strength that Sunwing enjoys is its increased purchasing power as a Tour Operator in partnership with one of Europe's largest tour operators. If you own the beds, does not matter so much as to whom you use to provide the aviation component.

Anyway, bit of a thread drift. This has been hashed out before.

As long as the company is profitable we will have jobs. If more profitable...let there be more jobs! I think that might be along the lines of what Gilles might be drawing to our attention.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Just took a look at the latest published seniority list.
27 new pilots for March hired
20 new pilots for April hired
Total is 47 pilots so far... It's the 11th April today... I am not in the know how many more are being hired but those are the numbers published so far to the general Sunwing Pilot population. Judging by the roster patterns ....we need pilots...keep applying!

Great news! I have a question though. The 20 seasonal Canadians hired last fall were, as per your ratified CC, integrated into the main pilot group.

As far as you know, do these 47 new hires include those 20 or are they on top of the 20 ?

[Gilles Hudicourt]

This is what Sunwing wrote in its' LMO application to justify not training Canadians.

«L'an dernier, nous avons fait 71 millions de dollars de profits sur 1,4 milliard de chiffre d'affaires, a affirmé M. Char, directeur général, à La Presse Affaires. Cette année, nous devrions faire aussi bien, sinon mieux.

Translation:

Last year we made 71 million dollars in profit on gross revenues of 1.4 billion stated MR Char, the Director to La Presse Affaires. this year, we should do as well if not better.

Isn't there a contradiction in these two statements ? The first states that it would be unreasonable for Sunwing to be expected to train its pilots at company expense and this statement that Sunwing made 71 million in net profit.

The 119 LMO, even at $40,000 each, would have cost Sunwing 4.76 million, leaving them with 66 million in profit.

And there would have been 119 extra Canadian pilots earning between 50 and 120 thousand earning a salary and paying taxes rather than having the same guys on EI while the 119 foreign pilots take their pay to their home countries.

[gonnabeapilot]

I believe 18 of the 27 hired in March were the seasonal contractors that chose to accept full time employment. The other 9 in March were new hires. The 20 in April are all new hires. So we have 29 new full time pilots that have been recently hired and 18 more that were facing layoff who have been told they now have a job year round. The latest I've heard is that another 11 or so should be hired and begin training in mid to late April. That will total 40 new hires thus spring which essentially taps out the training capabilities of the airline until late in the summer. Expect another 20-30 seasonal Canadian pilots to be hired in the fall for a grand total of 58 full time and 20-30 seasonal positions being created for Canadian pilots in 2013 at Sunwing.

[YYCcrew]

A buddy of mine is starting ground school with SW shortly (I begged him not to take the job), but apparently SW is now offering $15,000 signing bonuses for a one year commitment...

[monkey]

why would you beg him not to take the job? you prefer foreigners? their new agreement is excellent.

[Gino Under]

So much for training costs.

[Rogerdodger2]

47 ontop of the 20 contractors 67 in total

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Sunwing posts profits of 71 million in 2012 but is allowed to bring in TFW pilots in 2012 to save having to train Canadian pilots. Mr Williams claims Sunwing made a significant effort when they hired 20 seasonal pilots in the fall of 2012, pilots that they had to train at a cost of $800,000.

Air Transat also hired and trained a 16 pilots in the spring of 2012, at a cost of over a half a million dollars, pilots that all had to be laid off in the fall of that same year. These are probably gone for good. Some have found jobs elsewhere. Some are on EI.

Air Transat lost $40 million after taxes in 2012. We had to lay off 65 pilots in the fall, pilots that had all been trained at a cost of 30 or 40 thousand dollars each.

Sunwing made 71 million that same year, but because the cost of training pilots for seasonal work is unreasonable, HRSDC allowed them to import 119 extra foreign pilots under a Labour Marker Opinion so Sunwing would not have to face the same expense Air Transat had.

Way to go HRSDC.

What's next ? Sunwing will pay less taxes on aviation fuel than Air Transat does ?

[BE20 Driver]

What's next ? Sunwing will pay less taxes on aviation fuel than Air Transat does ?

Please be careful not to change this argument from getting rid of foreign workers to one about what the competition is doing. Fight the good fight.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

You misunderstood.

In 2012 Transat lost 50 million dollars. Sunwing declared earning 71 million dollars.

That same year, in their LMO applications, Sunwing petitionned HRSDC for relief from the obligation having to hire and train Canadian workers (pilots) because the seasonal nature of the work they did would make it "unreasonable" for Sunwing to have to make such a large investment in pilot training when they would only need those pilots for six months. HRSDC agreed and allowed Sunwing to hire 119 foreign pilots under an LMO instead of hiring and training Canadians. They claim a 737 pilot costs them $40,000 to train, so they saved $4.76 million in pilot training. But made $71 million in profit that year.

How did they save these $4.71 million? By NOT hiring Canadians. There are 119 Canadian pilots that would have obtained a 737 rating last fall had Sunwing not obtained those LMOs. There are 119 Canadians that would have earned a minimum of $510000/year for 6 months. There are 119 Canadians that would have paid taxes on a minimum salary of $51,000/year for six months. There are 119 Canadians that would have either left EI, or less desirable jobs to take these 737 jobs.

Instead, they hired 119 already trained foreigners, who pay no taxes in this country. And they were permitted to do this because they petitioned HRSDC that it would be "unreasonable" for them to have to pay for these pilot's training.

But my employer, who lost $50 million last year, paid a type rating for every one of the 436 pilots who were on our list before the lay offs, including the 16 who were hired between March and April 2012 and were laid off on Oct 1 2012, along with 50 others. We made a profit with the 436 pilots in the summer. But because of the fierce winter competition, we lost huge amount in the winter, causing a net loss. The Sunwing business model is turning Transat into a seasonal airline as well. And that is very dangerous.

And who petitioned the government for relief from the high cost of training ? The one who makes a killing.

This is why I made the analogy with aviation fuel. When its price rises, it affects all Airlines equally. They day one airline begins to petition to the government from relief form having to pay the taxes the government levies on Aviation fuel and the government agrees, it will again amount to the government giving one company an unfair commercial advantage over another at taxpayer expense....... just like they did for the pilots.

[photofly]

Can I ask an idle question?

There are 119 Canadian pilots that would have obtained a 737 rating last fall had Sunwing not obtained those LMOs.

Are there enough training places for 119 pilots in time for one season? How many 737 type ratings can a typical training organisation issue in one year?

[BE20 Driver]

Gilles. I agree with you and I think we all know that Sunwing made gross profits and AT didn't. The second you use these arguments with someone, the fight becomes personal and you will loose credibility. Keep it a neutral fight based on the LMO and TFW's and then you won't be seen as an Air Transat goon out fighting the fight for management.

Just my two cents.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I understand what you are saying. But no one will think I am an Air Transat goon when they post their first help wanted ad on AvCanada for 737 pilots with a type rating and 500 hours on type and current.

I want this stopped before we get to that.