Union at West Jet

[wjfly]

Hello all;

Lets keep things clean and real. I think we should talk about a Union. Lets have an adult discussion. Personally, I would like to find out more. A friend of mine at Sunwing just got their first contract, and it is really good. I don't think that there is anything wrong with getting information. Let's not use names etc... Lets just talk and see where it goes! I have to say though that I think it is wrong for people to be scared about wanting a union. People should not be scared... Either way, I think it is our right to decide. No one else. Does that make me militant???

[True North]

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... =5&t=88506

[jjj]

wjfly,

The place for this discussion is wjpa.ca .

You may not be anonymous but you may enjoy the company of a few others who are proponents of unionizing. You will still get your profit share cheque next month and you will still get your upgrade if not already. The only people that get silenced on the site are the ones who violate the terms and conditions which prohibit personal attacks etc.

Speak/write logically and you will foster professional discussion. If you enter a room with guns blazing, expect people to shoot back.

That's it.

Talk of unionizing is not forbidden and if you recall it was even part of the internal pilot survey at WestJet.

You will get nothing accomplished here.

Regards,

JJJ

[Mostly Harmless]

jjj, a person and their opinion deserve the right of free speech.

If wjfly does not feel safe posting inside the company website, that is very telling about the job management is doing in encouraging people to speak up about their concerns.

The 'Open Door' is not really all that open. I realize there have to be limits lest the managers be inundated by whining all day long and get nothing done, but... but, Open Door has to still be willing to listen and consider what is being said when the person who walks through that door doesn't agree with management policy. That person may have a valid concern or even a better way of doing things.

If no names are mentioned, and the discussion is civil... as is the stated intent of wjfly, why not have the discussion. Perhaps minds will be changed... maybe a union is not the way to go now, or perhaps it is correct and it is the right move. What might be gained here is the insight of those already in a union and whether or not they are happy with the union and if they feel they are getting their dues worth out of the organization. Does the union listen to the concerns of the pilot group they represent? Do they get better results?

[JSYK]

Many of the people on this board, who are at airlines with certified representation and collective bargaining agreements(CBA), take for granted a lot of the most basic rights and protections afforded INDIVIDUALS covered under a legally recognized CBA. Such as, discipline & discharge for just cause only, the ability to appeal management decisions effecting only themselves, transparent & consistent policies (e.g.; upgrade guidelines) which cannot be changed without mutual consent, third party (CIRB) binding arbitration to resolve disputes and fundamentally of all, a legal obligation on part of the certified bargaining unit for "Duty of Fair Representation" (DFR) for every INDIVIDUAL covered by that unit.

[JSYK]

Almost forgot, AND fully Independent legal assistance paid for by the certified association. (No asking F/A, CSA, AME, Call centre lady and office peeps for the $$$)

[wjparesignation]

I'd love to keep lurking but times are changing -

Current issues:

WJPA - group of pilots who are trained by the human resources department of our airline. This is where a lot of nice people go to learn some very twisted perceptions on what representation is.

PACT - the overall group that manages WJPA. This group managed by a flight attendant. It consists of the call centre, airports, ect. Do you really think anything can happen when interests are not aligned?

Fair Treatment policy. Welcome to the Banana Republic. This is meant to replace the normal grievance process but simply leads up one side of management and down the other. There is no fair way to win, at anything, unless management wants to give you a win, to then win perception.

Passive agressive intimidation is allowed to go on for a first officers upgrade, messages will be delivered via drones that work for the greater good. This silences FO's, hampers safety and deteriorates morale.

This could go on for a long time but in the end, there is a reason that 99% of professional pilots around the world certify. The WJPA can't, because it doesn't exist. None of the current practices of PACT would be accepted by Canadian Industrial Laws. This system of a yellow company union would be illegal in most civilized parts of the world and it just turns in to a bigger square peg over a smaller and smaller round hole.

JJJ- change might be good for everyone. We can do it well -or we can do it poorly. Why ruin what we have made by trying to hold back a damn that is close to breaking? People want to talk, and feel safe when they do. The internal forum doesn't do that because it is very well know that it is viewed by managers. Pilots and Leadership need to get on the same page again. It isn't going to happen with PACT and the WJPA system.

WJ should have listened to the survey last year instead of spinning and manipulating the results - for twisted perception.

[hurtin'albertan]

jjj, a person and their opinion deserve the right of free speech.

If wjfly does not feel safe posting inside the company website, that is very telling about the job management is doing in encouraging people to speak up about their concerns.

The 'Open Door' is not really all that open. I realize there have to be limits lest the managers be inundated by whining all day long and get nothing done, but... but, Open Door has to still be willing to listen and consider what is being said when the person who walks through that door doesn't agree with management policy. That person may have a valid concern or even a better way of doing things.

If no names are mentioned, and the discussion is civil... as is the stated intent of wjfly, why not have the discussion. Perhaps minds will be changed... maybe a union is not the way to go now, or perhaps it is correct and it is the right move. What might be gained here is the insight of those already in a union and whether or not they are happy with the union and if they feel they are getting their dues worth out of the organization. Does the union listen to the concerns of the pilot group they represent? Do they get better results?

This is bang on.

jjj: This is a public forum, the OP should be able to ask the question. Everyone knows that the WJPA forum is monitored by management (and don't say they don't have access, not per se, but I know of a couple guys who give them their log-in info, or at the very least cut and paste posts and kick 'em upstairs for whatever reason... career advancement maybe?), so that's why you seldom see honest opinions, except from those with nothing to lose (i.e. senior captains) It's a rare FO who is willing to stick his neck out and speak his mind there.

Why not talk about it here? Perhaps an outside perspective on the whole union thing, rather than the constant fear mongering of "it's a money pit, we don't need it" and other myths will be dispelled.

I think it's high time we had an honest discussion about getting our poop together. Maybe this "public" place isn't ideal, but until the pilot group has a forum where the thought police aren't watching, the discourse will never be 100% honest.

[rudder]

From a legal perspective, the WJPA is nothing more than a subcommittee of a committee (PACT). I have heard some say that WJPA is an 'Association' that has legal standing. No, it does not. At least not any more than is provided for as employees without a certified bargaining agent under the Canada Labour Code.

I think that it is important for the WJ pilots to have this discussion if for no other reason than to identify areas of concern and evaluate the best vehicle for change that will benefit the majority. Unionisation may or may not be the most logical direction to take. The WJ pilots certainly have the critical mass to either choose self-representation via certifying the WJPA (FYI - you will need a Constitution) or to join an existing certified bargaining agent. Regardless, it is important to periodically review the status quo in order to determine if it is meeting the needs of the group.

And not intending to tilt the discussion but.......... ALPA has resources (technical/legal/industrial) that are unmatched anywhere on the planet. So while some may choke on the very idea of being represented by a 'Union', ALPA offers many more benefits to professional airline pilots than simply achieving and enforcing a collective agreement. Most members do not even notice these resources until they actually need them on an individual basis.

There certainly does seem to be a lot going on at WJ that affects the pilot group. Expanding codeshare agreements, subcontracting (757's), and Encore: a potential alter-ego airline. And now multi-bases and a potential end to the Port system. These can all be positive things provided that there are protections for the WJ pilots.

Best of luck in this endeavour.

[URC]

I would like to find out more.

If past history is any indication ...

Gregg Saretsky ... Executive Vice President of Marketing and Planning of Alaska Airlines Inc., a subsidiary of Alaska Air Group Inc. from January 2002 to April 27, 2007.

http://investing.businessweek.com/resea ... ker=WJA:CN

May 5, 2005

Arbitrator orders pay cut for Alaska Airlines' pilots

Alaska Airlines' pilots will take a pay cut of about 26 percent beginning today, an arbitrator notified the airline and its pilots union...

By Melissa Allison

Seattle Times business reporter

Alaska Airlines' pilots will take a pay cut of about 26 percent beginning today, an arbitrator notified the airline and its pilots union Saturday.

Pilots also will make higher health-care contributions and be subject to various work-rule changes intended to improve productivity, arbitrator Richard Kasher decided. No changes will be made to pilots' pension or profit-sharing plans.

The airline and the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) began contract talks in October 2003. Kasher was called in as arbitrator when the parties could not reach an agreement by mid-December 2004.

The decision riled the union, which said Alaska's nearly 1,500 pilots would continue to provide good service "despite the unconscionable decision by the arbitration board to penalize our pilots for the shortcomings of management."

The decision will put unnecessary hardship on the airline's pilots and their families, Capt. Mark Bryant, chairman of the Alaska pilots union, said in a statement last night.

Profits at the Seattle-based carrier have suffered partly from high fuel costs and low ticket prices, leading management to look for ways to shave expenses in many areas. Pilot pay represents a large portion of overall wage costs at any airline.

Management at the nation's ninth-largest carrier welcomed the decision.

"This allows us to move forward with a competitive wage and benefit package for our pilots and helps us achieve a better cost alignment with other major carriers," Dennis Hamel, Alaska's vice president of employee services, said in a statement.

The contract becomes amendable in two years.

Alaska's baggage handlers are voting this week on a proposal from management that, if passed, could save the jobs of 500 unionized workers in Seattle. Their union does not like the terms of the proposal and has recommended that workers vote against it.

http://seattletimes.com/html/businesste ... ka02m.html

[fish4life]

Just because a company may have a union doesn't mean that the union and management have to work against each other, some very successful companies have unions that work together with management. Not saying a union is or isn't the way to go but just because you get a union doesn't mean you have to automatically end up with a ACPA VS AC management relationship.

[Bede]

URC,

Thanks for the post. I would argue that that would be exactly why we don't want a union. Those pilots have less legal recourse than an unrepresented pilot would. I believe that legally, WJ could with the stroke of a pen cut our wages 26%. However, that would be considered constructive dismissal and pilots could get severance if they quit, or the difference in pay awarded by court order.

I do not support a union at WJ, but I do support an incorporated association separate from PACT. I also support paying more dues to hire professionals to help us out.

[hurtin'albertan]

Just because a company may have a union doesn't mean that the union and management have to work against each other, some very successful companies have unions that work together with management. Not saying a union is or isn't the way to go but just because you get a union doesn't mean you have to automatically end up with a ACPA VS AC management relationship.

I wrote a long reply, and it timed out, so I lost my work. That's frustrating. Anyway, the gist of what I was saying was this:

Just because an employee group certifies, does not mean that it automatically has to be an US vs. THEM relationship between the employees and management.

This is the number one reason and rationale people use to say, "I don't want a union here", because they are afraid that some big bad ALPA guy is going to come in and start running the show. This is not the case. Whether you certify with association (i.e. ALPA) or without (i.e. ACPA, SWAPA) the MEC or union execs are 100% from your own pilot group. In fact, I'd be willing to put serious money on the table that were the WJ pilots to certify, we would have many, MANY more people (and some very smart people) running for positions on the executive than we currently have running for the WJPA (how many acclimations have we had?). The way the system currently is, most guys wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole.

The WJPA system is broken. It may have worked back when we had 300 pilots, or 500 pilots, but with 1200, it doesn't. Nothing against the guys in there, but in reality, their hands are tied. They have no training, they have no job protection. They are beholden to PACT, which is the umbrella group under which all employee representation falls. We all know it's a "tow the line or you are out". (not naming names, but witness what happened to two of our guys 4 years ago).

In my entire time here at WJ, I have never seen such low front-line morale (pilots, fas csas) during such good times (record loads, profits, stock price). I attribute this DIRECTLY to the management style of the day, and the distinct lack of communication. As an example, it took our EVP Flt Ops TWO WEEKS to put out a mostly fluffy feel-good memo regarding the bases (after the news was dropped on us just before Easter weekend, with no details, just a "we're opening bases and closing ports, uh, Happy Easter! Work hard, it's gonna be busy!". Meanwhile, in that two week period he put out two of his "weekly updates" discussing slip and fall injuries with nary a mention of the base thing! WTF?!

Things need to change, or WJ will become "just another airline".

We pilots can continue thinking thing are rosy, and we are being represented well, and then wake up one morning realizing we've been bent over, or we can organize ourselves, get some proper representational structure going with some real resources behind us, and march up to the 6th floor and say: "Hey guys, here's what we can do TOGETHER, to get this thing back on the rails…"

IMO

[twinpratts]

Hello all;

Lets keep things clean and real. I think we should talk about a Union. Lets have an adult discussion. Personally, I would like to find out more. A friend of mine at Sunwing just got their first contract, and it is really good. I don't think that there is anything wrong with getting information. Let's not use names etc... Lets just talk and see where it goes! I have to say though that I think it is wrong for people to be scared about wanting a union. People should not be scared... Either way, I think it is our right to decide. No one else. Does that make me militant???

Sweet first post Dude, LOL.

[True North]

[quote="hurtin'albertan] We all know it's a "tow the line or you are out". (not naming names, but witness what happened to two of our guys 4 years ago).[/quote]

Riiight.

[JSYK]

[quote="hurtin'albertan] We all know it's a "tow the line or you are out". (not naming names, but witness what happened to two of our guys 4 years ago).

Riiight. [/quote][/quote]

True North,
Have you talked to them? Or are you listening to the defamatory rumors about them? Or perhaps you are one of those guys who spreads them?

Guys like you are exactly why these posts are on here today.

[goaroundthrust]

why dont we get a private forum here on avcanada?

[Lateralus]

why dont we get a private forum here on avcanada?

Agreed

[flyer 1492]

Just a question regarding the PACT. Every employee (9,000) at WJ donates 2.50 per pay cheque to the fund which equals to around 22,500 or 585,000 per year. If the monies are not spent, do they return the cash to the employees at the end of the year or does WJ keep the money. Just asking....

[goaroundthrust]

How to set the private forum

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 63&t=11921

[True North]

[quote="hurtin'albertan] We all know it's a "tow the line or you are out". (not naming names, but witness what happened to two of our guys 4 years ago).

Riiight.

[/quote]

True North,
Have you talked to them? Or are you listening to the defamatory rumors about them? Or perhaps you are one of those guys who spreads them?

Guys like you are exactly why these posts are on here today.[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]

Don't need to talk to anybody, don't even know who they are.

What I do know, and this part is fact, nobody gets fired without just cause. WestJet is subject to all the same labour laws as any other company in Canada. So if by "not toeing the line" you mean not following company SOP or code of conduct rules then too bad so sad. They can't make up reasons to get rid of people. So no, I'm not spreading rumours but it certainly sounds like you and hurtin'albertan are.

[jjj]

I know the two guys.

Dissenters of the WJPA who were defended by the WJPA when the CEO wanted them fired. I suppose they must have some discontent with the WJPA because if not for their intrusion, the guys would be millionaires fron the wrongful dismissal suit.

WS is not perfect. Firing these guys would not have been the last blunder of said CEO who no longer resides in the Crystal Palace.

JJJ

Side note:

I was expecting external commentary to derail the discussion here but it actually seems like most who are chiming in actually work at WS. That was the foundation of my original objection to having a discussion on here. Though I don't agree with a few posts, the discussion is so far not bad.

[True North]

A friend of mine at Sunwing just got their first contract, and it is really good.

Better than your WestJet contract? I'm betting not even close.

[jjj]

Edit

[JSYK]

[/quote]

Don't need to talk to anybody, don't even know who they are.

What I do know, and this part is fact, nobody gets fired without just cause. WestJet is subject to all the same labour laws as any other company in Canada. So if by "not toeing the line" you mean not following company SOP or code of conduct rules then too bad so sad. They can't make up reasons to get rid of people. So no, I'm not spreading rumours but it certainly sounds like you and hurtin'albertan are.[/quote]

This proves you are completely ignorant of Labour Law.