Spin Training

[Cessna driver]

Hey guys,

Having some trouble with this one,

1) Is there a specific CAR's reference that says you CAN NOT do spins as a licensed PPL?
(The only thing I have found was no upper air with passengers on board)

2) Would you recommend spin training for PPL students working on their commercial, provided they have gone out with an instructor and practiced them, and the instructor determines that they are doing everything correctly and can do them solo?

The reason I ask is a disagreement with the CFI.

I was told during my CPL training we could do spins solo, as it is on the flight test.

[AOW]

Solo spins, while not illegal, are in violation of many schools' rental agreements.
If you do get approval to do solo spin practice, remember that the different CG without a second pilot may significantly affect the spin characteristics; check your W&B to make sure you are in the utility(or aerobatic) category, not just at takeoff, but also after you have burned off the fuel you expect to use before doing the spin training. Make sure you have lots of altitude (so you can recover above the altitude recommended in the POH (look it up, you might be surprised!), and remember that is a minimum.

[Colonel Sanders]

Spins are a very complicated, weird little
corner of aerobatics. If you want to learn
about spins, there is plenty to learn: flat,
accelerated, inverted, and all the combinations.
Lots of applied physics which is not well-understood
even inside the aerobatic community.

Go to a professional. If you are on the west
coast, go here: www.tutimaacademy.com

If you are on the east coast, go here:
http://edgewater.patch.com/listings/dent-air

People consistently die every year, teaching
themselves spins. Please don't be one of them.

[Cat Driver]

Amen.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Spins IMO have no real value in the PPL syllabus. To get into a spin in your average Cessna or Piper you have to be Stupid times three.

Stupid Times One = You let the airplane get into slow flight without realizing and correcting the situation.

Stupid Times Two = You let the airplane stall without realizing and correcting the situation

Stupid Times Three = You not only didn't recover from the stall but you let the aircraft yaw through more than at least 90 degrees while it was stalled without doing anything.

I concentrate on stall recognition and recovery. The PPL spin demo is shown as an example of what happens if you are stupid times three and presented as a very botched stall recovery.

What I want is to instill an instinctive, automatic reaction of stick forward, full power, straight with the rudder anytime the student see any symptom of a stall. If the student has that then the aircraft can never get into a true fully developed spin where correct anti spin controls are required.

I also highly encourage my students to take an introductory aerobatic courses. Personally I think unless you are an aerobatic instructor you are not qualified to teach spins.

[High Flyin]

I always tell my students there's two criteria that must be met in order to spin an airplane.

First the airplane must be stalled

Second the airplane must be in un-coordinated flight.

How many PPL students are given the authority to fly solo, and are even given a license with little to no understanding on the significance of yaw? Therefore, they've already met one of the criteria. All that needs to happen now is for them to stall the airplane and panic.

I do think spins have a place in the PPL syllabus. A student should now the factors that lead to a spin and how to avoid them, as well as what a spin looks like, and the recovery method. It's one thing to read about in the FTM or Google, and quite another to sit in a spinning airplane.

However I do agree with BPF. Considering the stall horn SHOULD activate 10-15 knots prior to the stall, I don't really see how one should be able to stall an airplane. And if they're using their feet correctly, it's even rarer to enter a spin.

Personally, I wouldn't recommend solo spin practice. Especially as a PPL. If there's one thing I learned pretty damn quick as an instructor is that as a PPL, you think you know so much more then you actually do.

[Cessna driver]

But is the spin considered aerobatic manoeuvre?

Aside from everything else, can you legally do them?

I'm an instructor and i've always thought legally you can, without pax.

[High Flyin]

I believe TC views it as aerobatics. But can be wrong.

As far as doing it, if you own your own airplane that is certified for spins and have the require training, it's really up to you.

[habs.fan]

TC lets you do all the spins/aerobatics you want without pax (while respecting aircraft documentation).

[Colonel Sanders]

is the spin considered aerobatic manoeuvre?

It sure as hell is. See CAR 101.01(1):

"aerobatic manoeuvre" - means a manoeuvre where a change in the attitude of an aircraft results in a bank angle greater than 60 degrees, an abnormal attitude or an abnormal acceleration not incidental to normal flying;

However, as part of the aircraft certification, TC allows
you to fly some aerobatic maneuvers (eg spin) under
some circumstances (eg utility category) in some aircraft.

The usual bureaucratic bafflegab.

I really don't think low-time PPLs and CPLs
doing aerobatic maneuvers (rolls, loops,
hammerheads, spins) in 172's is really that
great an idea, but maybe I'm just not as
brave as you guys.

Hey, maybe you could buy a book and teach
yourself aerobatics?

[CFR]

There was a time (when planes were wood and men were steel) when spinning was part of the PPL training.

[Big Pistons Forever]

There was a time (when planes were wood and men were steel) when spinning was part of the PPL training.

Yup and when the FAA and TC removed the requirement for spin training and placed more emphasis on stall recognition and recovery the spin accident rate decreased.

Since most stall/spin accidents occur at low altitudes knowing how to recover is not much use if there is insufficient altitude to effect the recovery, The only thing that will save your butt is to not allow the aircraft to enter the spin in the first place, that is where the emphasis should be placed in PPL training.

[PilotDAR]

Though I agree with Big Pistons and others who advocate for stall avoidance as the primary objective over spin training, I still consider spin training of value too. It is very true that if you enter a spin close to the ground, your spin training is unlikely to save you.

In the case of a utility certified aircraft, for which a spin is an approved maneuver, and described in the flight manual, I would have to hope that an instructor teaching in that aircraft could demonstrate one. It does not have to be done to aerobatic precision, or involve inverted or flat spins, as those utility certified aircraft won't enter those more extreme conditions, if the spin is flown as described in the flight manual.

While respecting the preferences of the aircraft owner, I applaud those pilots who would seek competent training in stalls and spins, and thereafter maintain those aircraft handling skills.

Those who do not support spinning aircraft do have some unfortunate statistics to support their point. There is the other side though, was the failure that of the plane, or the pilot?

For all Normal category single engine aircraft the following applies: (my bold)

"(a) Normal category airplanes. A single-engine, normal category airplane must be able to recover from a one-turn spin or a three-second spin, whichever takes longer, in not more than one additional turn after initiation of the first control action for recovery, or demonstrate compliance with the optional spin resistant requirements of this section.
(1) The following apply to one turn or three-second spins:
(i) For both the flaps-retracted and flaps-extended conditions, the applicable airspeed limit and positive limit maneuvering load factor must not be exceeded;
(ii) No control forces or characteristic encountered during the spin or recovery may adversely affect prompt recovery;
(iii) It must be impossible to obtain unrecoverable spins with any use of the flight or engine power controls either at the entry into or during the spin; and.........."

During testing, I have deliberately spun many aircraft, and assert that with proper precautions, and the maneuver conducted within the certification conditions (within weight and C of G , and exit the spin as required), spinning is something a competent pilot should be safely able to do.

I also assert that a pilot who is not competent spinning should not attempt a post maintenance check flight, or to set up stall warning systems following adjustment. And flight testing amateur built aircraft is much farther off that scale!

[Colonel Sanders]

This guy didn't think I knew very much:



He's dead now. Feel free to disagree with me
and then go kill yourself, too.

[PilotDAR]

Yes, I too have watched a pilot deliberately spin, and kill himself right in front of me. This followed an announcer telling the crowd that the pilot would now demonstrate a spin. I believe that had he entered from a height greater than the 300 feet AGL I estimate he did, it might have been a good demonstration. Spinning plans is not a fatal thing to do; striking the ground or exceeding limitations might well be.

The pilot in the preceding video did not approach his intentional spin from steady flight, and perform a HASEL check before he entered (the flight was certainly not stable, and the H was obviously inadequate for the ultimate maneuver.

I think the OP's question centered much more on careful, planned, pilot proficiency at altitude, rather than low level multi maneuver aerobatics, which some might view as a scattered discombobulation. One really does not compare to the other.

Spins must be approached with care and discipline, in an appropriate aircraft, within it's limitations, and in accordance with approved procedures [properly]. Inducing fear that properly executed proficiency spinning is a bad idea is, in my opinion unduly negative toward pilots who are just trying to become the better pilots we all think they should be.

[Expat]

There was a time (when planes were wood and men were steel) when spinning was part of the PPL training.

Yup and when the FAA and TC removed the requirement for spin training and placed more emphasis on stall recognition and recovery the spin accident rate decreased.

Since most stall/spin accidents occur at low altitudes knowing how to recover is not much use if there is insufficient altitude to effect the recovery, The only thing that will save your butt is to not allow the aircraft to enter the spin in the first place, that is where the emphasis should be placed in PPL training.

I agree. I still think students could be easily shown how to get into a spin, and how not to. To get into one, kick a rudder pedal, and pull. To avoid it, kick the opposite pedal, and push. Seems simple.
I learned on my PPl and CPL to do, and enjoy spins. I continued to do them on Sunday mornings, as an exercise. They can be done safely, at altitude, and with being carefull during recovery not to pull Gs. It is one of the few thrills you can still get legally in GA.

[Colonel Sanders]

Seems simple

You sound like Bryan Jensen.

[padre12]

yes... I too got my private way back when spin training was required... I also remember the days when all of my CPL students got to ex. 13 at the same time (I think the flight was CH11 in our old lesson plans) and so it was a day of climbing up to 11000' and back. (the 11000' is a clue as to the ground elevation in the practice area, and the POH altitude recovery requirement (4000'AGL)...

I'm with the Col. and Cat....

padre

[mcrit]

At one point long ago I dug into the CARs WRT this subject. If memory serves I found the answer in section 5(?) where it talks about aircraft certification. The CAR basically referred to a FAR, and that FAR said that spins were not considered aerobatics. I'm not going to go and dig that up again right now because it made my head hurt the first time.

Spins with pax? The CARs say that you have to have x amount of dual aerobatic training or y amount of aerobatic solo training to do aeros with pax (I apologize but the exact values of x and y slip my mind right now, might be due to the Scotch). Get some dual spin training, make sure that you log more than x hours of spin training and you are legal. Spins solo (without pax)? Good to go. Nothing in the CARs says you can't.

Now for the matter of what is legal vs what is smart. Go get some good dual spin training on what ever aircraft you are flying. When you feel comfortable, and the instructor feels comfortable, why not do them solo? A spin in a typical light training aircraft is no big deal. Now for the caveats. Don't just go out and teach yourself spins. Don't spin an aircraft that is not certified for it. Don't spin if the W&B is not in the envelope. Don't spin at low altitude. Don't spin in crappy Wx.

I think removing spins from the PPL was a drastic step towards dumbing things down.

[Big Pistons Forever]

s. It is one of the few thrills you can still get legally in GA.

Aerobatic training offers way more thrills than just going out and doing spins as well as providing much more opportunity to improve your piloting skills then solo spins.

[Colonel Sanders]

These kids had quite a thrill spinning
their rented 172, and they're all dead now.



Every year, pilots treat aerobatics and
low altitude aerobatics with contempt,
and they die doing it.

They are stupid. If you want to be stupid
and die this year, go ahead - treat aerobatics
with contempt.

[PilotDAR]

treat aerobatics with contempt.

Quite agree, but really, this statement is valid for all things aviation. Aerobatics, particularly at low altitude just leave a much smaller window for getting it wrong.

Perhaps the photo is that of a recent accident in which I believe that I recall there was a back seat occupant. Though I have not worked out the possible C of G, I would venture that it would have been behind the aft limit for utility category. Be reminded that the aft C of G limit is often established based upon the spin recovery characteristics of the aircraft. Several aircraft I have spin tested exhibited un nerving characteristics when recovering spins at the aft limit and gross weight. All recovered as required by the design requirements, but it can seem like a very long time when you're going down and around, and full down elevator does not seem to be lowering the nose.

It is obvious from the photo that that 172 was not moving forward when it hit the ground. Chances of survival are inversely proportional to angle of arrival.

Receive competent training, use lots of altitude, fly the plane within its limitations, and avoid any display of contempt for aviation!

[photofly]

Just a side comment: according to the POH, the C172 utility category only applies when the rear seat is unoccupied, in addition to the restriction on the CofG location. Spins are not permitted with any occupant in the rear seat.

[Jonathan Goldsmith]

Bryan Jensen makes it look like the consequences of using some of his 250' aerobatic floor to recover from the inverted spin were worth pulling hard enough to risk a low altitude stall.

Private pilot spin training is not just about recovering from spins. It is one of the only maneuvers common flying school aircraft can legally use to get students comfortable handling the airplane.

[mcrit]

These kids had quite a thrill spinning
their rented 172,outside the safe parameters listed in the POH, and they're all dead now.

Hi Hedley, I added just a bit to your statement so as to make it reflect the root cause of the accident.
That being said, treating low altitude anything with contempt is a good way to die.