Hi All,

I know the Flight Training forum typically caters to Ab Initio training but I figure even us experienced airline pilots can't hurt from a little extra training or discussion so in that vein I thought I'd start a thread about CRM. Something I feel very strongly about.

A week or so ago there was a thread about bullying which got me thinking about CRM. In my opinion one of the main purposes of CRM implementation was to get those types of attitudes out of the cockpit. The CRM movement started in the late 70s by NASA as a response to the fact that most accidents could be attributed to pilot error. During the course of their study, and much study since, they concluded that a number of accidents could be attributed to a Captain not listening to his or her crew members—or conversely those crew members not speaking up. CRM was developed as a way to try and change that.

These programs emphasized changing individual styles and correcting deficiencies in individual behavior such as a lack of assertiveness by juniors and authoritarian behavior by captains. Supporting this emphasis, the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB, 1979) had singled out the captain’s failure to accept input from junior crewmembers (a characteristic sometimes referred to as the “Wrong Stuff”) and a lack of assertiveness by the flight engineer as causal factors in a United Airlines crash in 1978.

-Source: Helmreich, Robert L., Ashleigh C. Merritt, and John A. Wilhelm. The Evolution of Crew Resource Management Training in Commercial Aviation.Http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homepage ... Pub235.pdf. N.p., n.d. Web.

I've been trying to find some other accidents that can be attributed to an overbearing Captain or an First Officer too meek to speak up. Can anyone think of some good examples? Or anyone have any personal experience in this regard that they would like to share?

Cheers,
Chax

Pan Am at Tenerife (1977, 583 dead)
Pretty much every single accident involving Korean Air

Good thread topic, Chax. One of the more egregious examples of CRM failure had to be the B-52 crash at Fairchild Air Base in 1994 - see http://www.crm-devel.org/resources/pape ... rkblue.htm.

At the opposite end of the spectrum, Al Haynes and his crew showed how CRM is supposed to work while dealing with the United 232 crash at Sioux City in 1989. I was fortunate to have attended a dinner a few years ago where Haynes was the guest speaker and delivered a very thorough presentation on the incident - absolutely riveting. You can find one version of his presentation here: http://www.airdisaster.com/eyewitness/ua232.shtml.

YYZSaabGuy wrote:I was fortunate to have attended a dinner a few years ago where Haynes was the guest speaker and delivered a very thorough presentation on the incident - absolutely riveting. You can find one version of his presentation here: http://www.airdisaster.com/eyewitness/ua232.shtml.

Hi SaabGuy,

I was fortunate enough to attend a dinner where he was the speaker as well. I was in flight school at the time and as you said it was absolutely riveting. His story, and the way in which he answered any and all questions, was inspiring to say the least. This type of teamwork and cohesiveness is what we should be striving for every time our wheels leave the ground.

For photofly, thanks for reminding me of the Tenerife disaster. I can't believe I didn't think of that. Probably the most blatant example of an overbearing Captain not even trying to listen to the input of his crew. His actions lead directly to the death of 583 people. Unbelievably he was KLM's chief pilot. This type of attitude was not only encouraged, but in fact it was rewarded. Replace Captain Haynes with Captain van Zanten and the Sioux City accident would have probably had a much worse outcome.

Cheers,
Chax

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHBs09Kf56w

Mayday episode.

A long time ago I remember watching a training video about the subject where they paird a bunch of first officers with a fake captain in a sim. It was pretty bizarre where they made the "Captain" who was really just an actor, play out a bunch of increasingly odd scenarios, and see what the first officers' reactions were. Most would only do something if the situation got dire, and then not even all of them. Would be interesting to find, though I'm not sure it would have ever been transcribed from the old BETA format...

In regards to United 232 watch this amazing video

There was one in the US years ago, think it was a Twin Otter. The Captain was a former US Marine and he had berated and belittled his FO to the point that when the Captain became incapacitated, the guy practically sat on his hands while the aircraft flew into the ground.

Seem to remember a recording where a 727 overran a runway. Captain and the FE ganged up on the FO. Captain ignored FO's calls during the unstabilized approach. As the plane ran off the end of the runway the CVR recorded the FO saying "I told you so!"

GF 072 on August 23, 2000 is another case study for you.

Another bad one is Airblue Flight 202
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airblue_Flight_202

The report issued by Pakistan's Civil Aviation Authority in November 2011 cited a lack of professionalism in the cockpit crew along with poor weather as primary factors in the crash.
In particular, the report noted that the captain ignored or did not properly respond to a multitude of Air Traffic Control directives and automated cabin warning systems. The report also claimed that the first officer passively accepted the captain's actions, after the captain on multiple occasions took a "harsh, snobbish and contrary" tone with the first officer and "berated" him

http://www.thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintDe ... 3557&Cat=7

It stated in the inquiry that the First Officer simply remained a passive bystander in the cockpit and did not participate as an effective team member failing to supplement and compliment or to correct the errors of his captain assertively in line with the teachings of the Crew Resource Management (CRM) due to the captain’s behaviour in the flight.
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It was also revealed that the captain’s behaviour towards the first officer was harsh, snobbish and contrary to the established norms.

Thanks everyone. I appreciate the examples.

Cheers,
Chax