Question for the aviation regulation wizards

[Gilles Hudicourt]

You are a fixed-wing ATPL rated pilot from an ICAO country, with multi-engine and instrument ratings. You also have a type rating on a jet, say a B-737NG.

You would like to obtain a Canadian ATPL Licence, also fixed wing, multi-engine, IFR and a type rating on the same jet you are already rated on in your country.

What is required to get the Canadian ticket ?

This is a technical question about Canadian Aviation Regulations. Nothing else. So please back up your posts with the relevant CARs.

I may be wrong but let's see if we can discover a fish, for I smell one.

Thank you.

Gilles

EDIT: I forgot an important detail: you have a job offer from an airline on the 737-800 in Canada when you arrive.

[AuxBatOn]

Groundschool will be waived, experience, skills, knowledge and medical have to be assessed. So: Class 1 medical, SAMRA, SARON, INRAT, prove experience and flight test.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/s ... e-2283.htm

TC's guidance on the application of the standards on that topic (421)

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Groundschool will be waived, experience, skills, knowledge and medical have to be assessed. So: Class 1 medical, SAMRA, SARON, INRAT, prove experience and flight test.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/s ... e-2283.htm

TC's guidance on the application of the standards on that topic (421)

Very good reply. Thank you for that link. Now let's elaborate and be specific on the flight test requirements. In part 4.0 of the page you provided, there is a link which brings us to the detailS for the required flight test:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... htm#421_30

[AuxBatOn]

It's actually 421.34(5) for ATPL-A. Essentially an IRT.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

You obviously know your regs. You provided the correct information in a matter of minutes. Thanks again. So here is the sub-paragraph you refer to.

DIVISION VIII - AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT LICENCE

421.34 Aeroplanes - Requirements

(5) Skill

(a) Within the 12 months preceding the date of application for the licence, an applicant shall demonstrate in a multi-engined aeroplane with no central thrust configuration and fitted with instruments and equipment suitable for IFR flight in controlled airspace, familiarity with and the ability:

(i) to perform both normal and emergency flight procedures and manoeuvres appropriate to the aeroplane in which the flight test is conducted; and

(ii) to execute all manoeuvres and procedures set forth in Division XIV for issue of a Group 1 instrument rating.

(b) For issue of the Airline Transport Pilot Licence - Aeroplane, the Minister shall only endorse a Group 1 Instrument Rating on the licence.

This brings up a question. How does that provide the applicant with a Canadian B-737NG type rating and PPC ?

[AuxBatOn]

Im pretty sure his recurrent or initial rating on the
737 would satisfy that, provided it was within the last 12 months.


Looking at division XIV for IR issuance:

(c) Skill

(i) Subject to paragraph (ii), an applicant shall successfully complete:
(amended 2012/02/19; previous version)
(A) a flight test as pilot-in-command of an aeroplane or helicopter, in accordance with Schedule 8 “Flight Test for the Issuance or Renewal of an Instrument Rating” of Standard 428 — Conduct of Flight Tests, or
(amended 2012/02/19; previous version)
(B) a Pilot Proficiency Check (PPC) for operations under IFR in accordance with Part VI or Part VII , as applicable.
(amended 2012/02/19; previous version)
(ii) An applicant who successfully completes a Line Operational Evaluation (LOE) from an approved Advanced Qualification Program (AQP) is deemed to have met the requirement of clause (B).
(amended 2012/02/19; previous version)

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Im pretty sure his recurrent or initial rating on the
737 would satisfy that, provided it was within the last 12 months.


Looking at division XIV for IR issuance:

(c) Skill

(i) Subject to paragraph (ii), an applicant shall successfully complete:
(amended 2012/02/19; previous version)
(A) a flight test as pilot-in-command of an aeroplane or helicopter, in accordance with Schedule 8 “Flight Test for the Issuance or Renewal of an Instrument Rating” of Standard 428 — Conduct of Flight Tests, or
(amended 2012/02/19; previous version)
(B) a Pilot Proficiency Check (PPC) for operations under IFR in accordance with Part VI or Part VII , as applicable.
(amended 2012/02/19; previous version)
(ii) An applicant who successfully completes a Line Operational Evaluation (LOE) from an approved Advanced Qualification Program (AQP) is deemed to have met the requirement of clause (B).
(amended 2012/02/19; previous version)

That last paragraph you quoted was under the requirement set forth in 421.34(5)(a)(ii), for obtaining the IR only:

DIVISION XIV - INSTRUMENT RATINGS

421.46 Requirements

(c) Skill

(i) Subject to paragraph (ii), an applicant shall successfully complete:
(amended 2012/02/19; previous version)
(A) a flight test as pilot-in-command of an aeroplane or helicopter, in accordance with Schedule 8 “Flight Test for the Issuance or Renewal of an Instrument Rating” of Standard 428 — Conduct of Flight Tests, or
(amended 2012/02/19; previous version)
(B) a Pilot Proficiency Check (PPC) for operations under IFR in accordance with Part VI or Part VII , as applicable.
(amended 2012/02/19; previous version)
(ii) An applicant who successfully completes a Line Operational Evaluation (LOE) from an approved Advanced Qualification Program (AQP) is deemed to have met the requirement of clause (B).
(amended 2012/02/19; previous version)

So that regulation just covers obtaining the "IR" part of the ATPL Multi-engine, IR, B-737NG rating.

It state that by fulfilling the requirements of an IFR PPC under Part VII , one also fulfills the requirements for obtaining the IR rating. But the requirement to actually obtain the ATPL is under 421.34(5)(i), agreed ?

This brings up other questions.

Would not the PPC for the B737NG be normally given by an "Approved Check Pilot" in a B-737NG simulator ?

[AuxBatOn]

Thats all you need... Do the items on the IR (as outlined in schedule OR a PPC. Show your experience requirement, your written exams and you get your ATPL + IR Group 1

If you can prove that your 737 ride included the items on sched 8, you are good to go.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

But one still has to comply with 421.34(5)(i) which states that

(5) Skill

(a) Within the 12 months preceding the date of application for the licence, an applicant shall demonstrate in a multi-engined aeroplane with no central thrust configuration and fitted with instruments and equipment suitable for IFR flight in controlled airspace, familiarity with and the ability:


(i) to perform both normal and emergency flight procedures and manoeuvres appropriate to the aeroplane in which the flight test is conducted;

Agreed ?

And you skipped my last question:

Would not the PPC for the B737NG for working at company XXX be normally given by an "Approved Check Pilot" in a B-737NG simulator ?

[AuxBatOn]

Where are you going with this? What is your real question/concern??

[Gilles Hudicourt]

The foreign applicant is applying for:

1) a fixed wing multi-engine Canadian ATPL
2) with Instrument rating
3) and a B-737NG type-rating/PPC

He needs to be tested for all 3.

Schedule 8 is only concerned with 2) above, that is the Instrument rating. The regulatory requirements for obtaining Caandian ATPL is this:

421.34 Aeroplanes - Requirements

(5) Skill

(a) Within the 12 months preceding the date of application for the licence, an applicant shall demonstrate in a multi-engined aeroplane with no central thrust configuration and fitted with instruments and equipment suitable for IFR flight in controlled airspace, familiarity with and the ability:


(i) to perform both normal and emergency flight procedures and manoeuvres appropriate to the aeroplane in which the flight test is conducted; and

This part,

(ii) to execute all manoeuvres and procedures set forth in Division XIV for issue of a Group 1 instrument rating.

is to satisfy the IR requirements of the ATPL.

You stated correctly that the regulations state that the IR requirements of 421.34 (5) (a) (ii) can me met by either doing a flight test as pilot in command in a aeroplane in accordance with Shedule 8, or by doing a PPC under IFR in accordance with Part VI or VII.

So in order to do a ride that provides the applicant with
1) an twin engine ATPL
2) an instrument rating
3) a B737NG type rating and PPC

he would have to do take a ride in a B-737NG under IFR in a test provided by by a Pilot Examiner.

DIVISION XI - AIRCRAFT TYPE RATINGS

421.40 Blanket and Individual Type Ratings

Where an applicant has met the applicable requirements for issuance, the following Permits and Licences may be endorsed with the indicated Type Ratings:

(2) Individual Type Ratings

An individual aircraft type rating is issued for aircraft not included in a blanket type rating. It is indicated by the appropriate aircraft type designator from Appendix A found at the end of this Subpart, endorsed on a permit or licence as follows:
(amended 2005/12/01; previous version)

(a) Aeroplanes

(i) each aeroplane with a minimum flight crew requirement of at least two pilots;

(ii) each aeroplane with a minimum flight crew requirement of at least two pilots utilizing a cruise relief pilot;

(iii) each high performance aeroplane type to be endorsed on a pilot licence - aeroplane category;


(3) Individual Type Rating Requirements

(a) Aeroplane - Two Crew

(i) Knowledge

An applicant for an individual aircraft type rating for aeroplanes with a minimum flight crew requirement of at least two pilots shall have completed a program of ground school instruction and flight training on the aeroplane type, and
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

Airline Transport Pilot Licence - Aeroplane

(B) in the case of the applicant who has obtained a minimum score of 70 percent (70%) on the Airline Transport Pilot Licence-Aeroplane written examinations (SAMRA and SARON) within the 24 months preceding the application for the endorsement of the rating, the written examination requirement shall be considered to have been met; or
(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)

(C) in the case of the holder of an Airline Transport Pilot Licence — Aeroplane, the written examination requirement shall be considered to have been met, or
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(iii) Skill

The applicant shall comply with one of the following requirements:

(A) An applicant shall have passed a pilot proficiency check conducted in accordance with Part VII of the Canadian Aviation Regulations for that aeroplane type within the 12 months preceding the application for the rating or passed a pilot proficiency check acceptable to the Minister for that aeroplane type within 12 months preceding the application for the rating;

(B) An applicant who successfully completes a Line Operational Evaluation (LOE) from an approved Advanced Qualification Program (AQP) within the 12 months preceding the application for the rating shall be considered to have met the pilot proficiency check requirement pursuant to Part VII of the Canadian Aviation Regulations;

Correct ?

PS. Going to bed now.....to be continued

[Aeros]

Assuming that the person has been flying the aircraft recently, getting the Type Rating is easy. You cited 421.40 for the Type Rating requirements, which is correct but there are also "Credits for Foreign Applicants" at the end. In the case of a Type Rating there is the following:

(b) Pilot Proficiency Check Requirement

The holder of a licence with a two-crew type rating issued by a Contracting State shall be considered to have met the Pilot Proficiency Check requirement specified in 3(a)(iii), 3(b)(iii), 3(f)(iii), and 3(g)(ii) above provided the applicant has acquired a minimum of 50 hours flight time on that aircraft type during the 12 months preceding the application for the rating.

If they have done some recent flying (50 hours in the last year) on the aircraft type then moving the Type Rating doesn't require dedicated flight check.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

This is great stuff. So to put all this in context:

DIVISION XI - AIRCRAFT TYPE RATINGS

421.40 Blanket and Individual Type Ratings

(5) Credits for Foreign Applicants

(a) Qualifying Flight Requirement

The holder of a licence issued by a Contracting State shall be considered to have met the qualifying flight requirement specified in 3(c)(iii), 3(g)(iii), 3(k)(ii), and 3(l) above provided the applicant has acquired a minimum of 10 hours pilot-in-command flight time on the appropriate aircraft type during the 12 months preceding the application for rating;

(b) Pilot Proficiency Check Requirement

The holder of a licence with a two-crew type rating issued by a Contracting State shall be considered to have met the Pilot Proficiency Check requirement specified in 3(a)(iii), 3(b)(iii), 3(f)(iii), and 3(g)(ii) above provided the applicant has acquired a minimum of 50 hours flight time on that aircraft type during the 12 months preceding the application for the rating.

This means that the Foreigner's Type Rating and PPC is endorsed at face value by Transport Canada. Correct.

So he does not need to be tested to validate his foreign Type-rating/PPC. The flight test then is restricted to fullfilling this part of the Regs:

421.34 Aeroplanes - Requirements

(5) Skill

(a) Within the 12 months preceding the date of application for the licence, an applicant shall demonstrate in a multi-engined aeroplane with no central thrust configuration and fitted with instruments and equipment suitable for IFR flight in controlled airspace, familiarity with and the ability:

(i) to perform both normal and emergency flight procedures and manoeuvres appropriate to the aeroplane in which the flight test is conducted; and

(ii) to execute all manoeuvres and procedures set forth in Division XIV for issue of a Group 1 instrument rating.

Which will allow him to be flight tested to have a Canadian ATPL with an Instrument rating.

If he was to perform his flight test on a Piper Aztec, he would still get a Canadian ATPL with Instrument rating and a B-73C type rating on his licence.

But because the applicant is going to work for a Canadian Airline under Part VII, he also needs to comply with part VII training requirements, which are here, and which involve simulator training and a test. Its under 725.124 (1) (a)(iii), and 725.124 (8) through (18).
Then there are the provisions of 725.124(28) and 725.124(28A) which require that the the new pilot do a PPC regardless.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... tm#725_124

So back to my initial question:

We have a foreign licenced ATPL pilot with a foreign B-737NG Type rating who wants to apply for a Canadian ATPL and have a Canadian 737NG type rating in order to work under Part VII for a Canadian carrier.

What flight test or tests are required of him to achieve his goal ? I know this is no easy question and sorry for those who are perplexed at what I am getting to with all of this, but I want others than me to put their finger on the problem that I suspect (I may be wrong, I am new at this)

Let's be meticulous in our analysis. If I erred in any of my statements above, please straighten me out.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

That's it ? No one else has any input on subject ?

[AuxBatOn]

735.124(28A)


(28A) Hire of Type Qualified Pilots
(amended 1998/03/23; no previous version)
(a) In this standard, "equivalent qualification" means a qualification achieved under an approved Transport Canada course.
(b) An air operator may hire a pilot holding a Canadian type qualification or foreign equivalent qualification , with no PPC on type in accordance with Part VII of the Canadian Aviation Regulations, and shall ensure that, as part of the initial training:
(i) the candidate last check on the aeroplane type was conducted on a synthetic flight training device;
(ii) the following is part of the training:
(A) company indoctrination;
(B) pilot ground and emergency procedures training on each type of aeroplane the pilot is assigned to, sufficient to cover the air operator procedures and equipment differences;
(C) standard operating procedures review;
(D) training in synthetic flight training device or flight training sufficient to pass a PPC; and
(E) sufficient line indoctrination to allow the pilot to become familiar with the air operator routes and operational procedures. In no case shall this be less than two sectors over typical route segments that the air operator flies; and
(iii) the candidate pass the following checks:
(A) completion of a PPC; and
(B) completion of a line check.

PPC and a line check would be sufficient provided the PPC included all items required for an IRT. That's how I would interpret it.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I guess that raises the question of "are all the foreign pilots doing a PPC, line Indioc plus all the other training at the start of every winter season ? "

[AuxBatOn]

I guess that raises the question of "are all the foreign pilots doing a PPC, line Indioc plus all the other training at the start of every winter season ? "

Those requirements are only to get the Canadian Licenses. Once you have it, normal rules apply wrt 705 recurrent training.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I heard that foreign applicants did the simulator PPC that is required to comply with 725.124 a that was considered the test to obtain the Canadian licence. I hope that is not true.

421.34 Aeroplanes - Requirements

(5) Skill

(a) Within the 12 months preceding the date of application for the licence, an applicant shall demonstrate in a multi-engined aeroplane with no central thrust configuration.....

Sorry for the quick post but I have a flight later on.

I can point out the regulation that says that the PPC can be made in a simulator. I can also point out the regulation that says that the IFR can be made in simulator.

The way I read 421.34(5)(a), it says that the applcanat shall demonstrate in a "multi-engined aeroplane". Can anyone show me where it says that the aeroplane in question can be substituted by a simulator ?

I did my test for all my tickets in a gas burning airplane. Private, Commercial ATPL, Instruments, both for my FAA and for my TC licences.

Can one imagine an applicant for a commercial licence in Canada telling TC that he will do his test in a simulator ?

There are also some regs that states that the applicant must do his test as pilot in command. Some foreign applicants were tested in a simulator as second in command and got their licences anyway.....

Finally, who in Canada is allowed to test foreign applicant and issue them Canadian licences ? Company Check pilots or Designated Examiners ? They are not one and the same.

Here the Company Check Pilot Manual

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/p ... u-1003.htm

I do not see where it says they can issue Canadian Pilot licences......

To be continued......

[AuxBatOn]

I think you are trying to find bugs where there is none... For the IR,

(A) a flight test as pilot-in-command of an aeroplane or helicopter, in accordance with Schedule 8 “Flight Test for the Issuance or Renewal of an Instrument Rating” of Standard 428 — Conduct of Flight Tests, or
(amended 2012/02/19; previous version)

It does state aeroplane, however in the test guide...

The initial flight test for the Instrument Rating may be conducted in an aeroplane or in a full-flight simulator (FFS) meeting the requirements stated in this section. The flight test for the renewal of the Instrument Rating may be conducted in an aeroplane, in a full-flight simulator or in a flight training device (FTD) meeting the requirements stated in this section.

It allows a sim ride for the initial.

If you want to change things, you'll have to come up with things bigger and more fundamental than this. This is minutia that doesn't change anything in the safety or morality of foreign pilots opetating our aircraft. Now, the fact that there are perfectly qualified canadian pilots, I think you have more meat to chew on that, so to speak.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I you read my previous post correctly, I stated that I can point to you where the regs authorize a sim to be used for the IR and a Type Rating.

I can point out the regulation that says that the PPC can be made in a simulator. I can also point out the regulation that says that the IFR can be made in simulator.

Nowhere does this exist however for a check ride to obtain a licence. Unless you can point it out.

[AuxBatOn]

Since you don't need a flight test for an ATPL, I think it's reasonable to use a simulator. Especially since the only required test for the issuance is an IRT, which do not require an actual airplane.

Again, I really appreciate your work, however I don't think administrative issues will have much weight in the end. Tackling the safety and morality issues will have more impact in the long run.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

A Canadian who already did a commercial flight test does not need a flight test for an ATPL. Tthat is not true of a foreign licensed pilot applying for his first Canadian licence. Read from the Regulations you quoted above.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/s ... e-2283.htm

[AuxBatOn]

A Canadian who already did a commercial flight test does not need a flight test for an ATPL. That is not true of a foreign licensed pilot applying for his first Canadian licence. Read from the Regulations you quoted above.

I know, that's what I meant. For interpretation, TC is always around! Send an email!!

[TCAS II]

Do foreign pilots have to write Canadian ATPL exams? SAMRA, SARON and INRAT? Obviously along with meeting the medical, skill and experience requirements also. Do foreign pilots come back each year or are they just here to cover our so-called "pilot shortage of qualified pilots"?

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... htm#421_34

[Gilles Hudicourt]

The Canadian Aviation Regulations require that foreign licensed pilots who apply for a Canadian licence, whether Recreational, Private, Commercial or Airline, must perform a flight test in an aircraft, the kind that flies in the air, and that the flight test must be done as pilot in command, never as second in command.

No Canadian licence can be issued following a flight test solely done in a simulator.

What can be issued following a flight test in a simulator in certain cases, as allowed by the CARs, are Instrument and Type Ratings.

It seems that there are some pilots who received a Canadian Pilot's licence after doing their only flight test in an aircraft simulator, and some of these were not only were tested in a simulator but were tested as they were flying as second in command.