337 Gear Up is Saskatchewan

[pelmet]

Occurrence No. : A13C0090 Occurrence Type: ACCIDENT

Class : CLASS 5 Reportable Type:

Date : 05-08-2013 Time : 17:00 CDT

Region of Responsibility : CENTRAL

Location : CYSF STONY RAPIDS, SASKATCHEWAN




Aircraft Information:


Registration : C-FVAS Operator : MEADOW AIR





Manufacturer : CESSNA Operator Type: COMMERCIAL

Model : 337 CARs Info: 702 - AERIAL WORK


Injuries: Fatal : 0 Serious : 0 Minor : 0 None : 2 Unknown : 0




Occurrence Summary :

A13C0090: The Cessna 337 aircraft, registration C-FVAS was inbound for runway 06 at the Stony Rapids airport. The aircraft subsequently landed on the runway with the landing gear retracted. The aircraft came to rest on the runway and the crew evacuated the aircraft without injury. The aircraft sustained damage to its belly and front propeller. It was reported that there were no mechanical anomalies with the aircraft and that the landing gear was not extended prior to landing.

[Doc]

Occurrence No. : A13C0090 Occurrence Type: ACCIDENT

Class : CLASS 5 Reportable Type:

Date : 05-08-2013 Time : 17:00 CDT

Region of Responsibility : CENTRAL

Location : CYSF STONY RAPIDS, SASKATCHEWAN




Aircraft Information:


Registration : C-FVAS Operator : MEADOW AIR





Manufacturer : CESSNA Operator Type: COMMERCIAL

Model : 337 CARs Info: 702 - AERIAL WORK


Injuries: Fatal : 0 Serious : 0 Minor : 0 None : 2 Unknown : 0




Occurrence Summary :

A13C0090: The Cessna 337 aircraft, registration C-FVAS was inbound for runway 06 at the Stony Rapids airport. The aircraft subsequently landed on the runway with the landing gear retracted. The aircraft came to rest on the runway and the crew evacuated the aircraft without injury. The aircraft sustained damage to its belly and front propeller. It was reported that there were no mechanical anomalies with the aircraft and that the landing gear was not extended prior to landing.

This almost never happens.

[jpilot77]

Wouldn't you be able to see from the cockpit that the main gear is down on a 337?

[Rudy]

If only they had hired that Wabusk fellow.

[iflyforpie]

Wouldn't you be able to see from the cockpit that the main gear is down on a 337?

I look for a wheel every time before I land.

[Doc]

Total "la de da" attitude. Pilots just don't give a crap. There really is no other explanation. It's not company culture. Its not fatigue. It's just slack ass, who gives a rat's ass attitude. Oh, you guys can look into it in great depth. You can call me names because I've gone on record to say this will NOT happen to me. You can all rant and rave about "nobody's perfect. Everybody makes mistakes. All the cliches you want to use...." FACT remains.....pilots just don't bloody care. It's NOT a chain of events......it's just bloody stupidity! Plain and simple.......
Flame away. I have NO respect for anyone who can defend such an action. And neither should the rest of you!

[pdw]

I look for a wheel every time before I land.

First trip in an RG ( a C210) the right pax had to echo "we got a wheel", everytime. This pilot forced himself to be a real prick about that, which led me to believe early on it's not a routine you wanted to be friendly around.

In reading Doc's rebukes over time about this, it becomes more than clear that protecting oneself from a gear-up on land is like defending yourself from your worst enemy.

[trey kule]

Well. speaking of the recent Wabusk accident....Seems that all those who come on here to tell me how much they learn from the mistakes of others, blah blah blah, ........another learning experience we should all speculate about and celebrate.
I think Doc pretty much got it right.
Another pilot who right up until the moment life proved him wrong thought they were a god of the skies.

Everyone demands respect. Few think they need to earn it.

Unless the gear has a malfunction, failing to put it down is 100% pilot error. Regardless of whatever excuse may be offered.

[Siddley Hawker]

I look for a wheel every time before I land.

Latches, lights, pressure, I got a wheel!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Latches, lights, pressure, I got a wheel!

And half ski.

[Doc]

My gear goes down at a certain speed. I confirm its down 5 back. Sometimes I'll select it down at 5 back, or intercepting the GS. I recheck it at 200 above minimums. I recheck it just prior to retarding my power levers to land. It is, and will always be down upon landing. You want me to stop breaking off, every time somebody NEGLECTS his job? DO YOUR JOB. PUT THE BLOODY GEAR DOWN!

[PilotDAR]

I recheck it just prior to retarding my power levers to land.

Yeah, I got myself into this habit very quickly while flying the Navajo. It suddenly occurred to me that the nice landings I was doing, because I carried a little power across the threshold, were a potential cause for my screw up, 'cause I was not retarding the throttles to idle on approach, so the gear warning horn would never sound were I have to forgotten the gear. I was subverting a safety system.

I made it my habit to assure that in addition to checking the gear position with OCD, I also eased the power to idle, even just for a moment, to let the gear warning system do its job as designed.

I know that I'm old now, 'cause I have too many hours to ever claim novice stupidity as an excuse for forgetting the gear - I just have to get it right!

[pelmet]

Seems that all those who come on here to tell me how much they learn from the mistakes of others, blah blah blah, ........another learning experience we should all speculate about and celebrate.
I think Doc pretty much got it right.

viewtopic.php?f=118&t=89625&p=831996#p831996

This pretty much says it all for similar subject.

[ogopogo]

I don't have that much time in retractable aircraft but in the Cutlass I used to fly there was an annoying gear horn that was activated by Man Press I think. Don't all planes have this? A 337 doesn't???

[pelmet]

I don't have that much time in retractable aircraft but in the Cutlass I used to fly there was an annoying gear horn that was activated by Man Press I think. Don't all planes have this? A 337 doesn't???

You will find that in the C337(at least the later models) that the gear system including the warning portion of it is pretty much the same as for your Cutlass RG aside from the gear doors that are on the C337(if they have not been removed by STC). One time I didn't get a green light, but it wouldn't test either. Replaced it with the gear up light but it didn't work either. Had to use a post light to get a green indication. Double bulb burnout syndrome I guess.

Have pumped the gear down before. Once had the motor CB pop. I knew exactly where the CB was located on the side panel kind of underneath the forward panel and a bit hidden. For the electro-hydraulic style system, you pull the breaker for the walkaround and then pump the doors open with the same emergency gear handle for closer inspection on the walkaround which really is a good idea because I have found birds nests there more than once. Then once back in the cockpit, you push the breaker in and when the master is turned on, the gear doors close(they close fast so make sure no one is close to them when you do this). Anyways, I had noticed on departure that the motor ran longer than normal and that should have clued me in initially. Anyways, after nothing happened when the gear was selected down, I reached down and pushed on the CB without looking at it(it is the only one in the area that is the big pull out-push in type. The CB felt like it was in but guess what? I should have looked because it wasn't(yes this is another embarrassing story). So I pumped the gear down which is a lot of pumps. By the way, watch your altitude as you are leaned forward and pumping for a while. Got three green and landed, then called maintenance. Eventually I had to admit that the CB had been out. Always visually check the CB, it needs a lot of force to be pushed in.

Also had to do it once with an electrical failure. Of course then you are a bit paranoid and wonder if that nosegear is really down with no light so when the pressure finally increases indicating the gear should be down, you still pump more against resistance to quadruple check that it is down. Was eventually also able to get a dim green light when the master switch was turned back on. Then I started worrying that maybe my forcefulness on the pumping had damaged a hydraulic line but an AME later assured me that the lines are pretty strong.

That's it for boring 337 gear stories for this post.

[iflyforpie]

My only experience with Skymaster gear is the old 210 style with the engine driven pump. I always wondered if you still had to pump the gear down on the power pack ones.... because they can't really free-fall like the Pipers. Your downlocks in a 337 are actually locking the gear 'up'.

But the power packs themselves are junk. They were designed for 1950s American convertibles, not aircraft. Since they are usually pressure-demand, if there is any blow by in any actuator, the system will bleed down and activate the pump.... wearing out the motor, the pump, and your alternator drives each time it actuates. If you see your ammeter spike every so often in your 172RG, 177RG, 210, 337, PA-28R, PA-32R, PA-34, PA-44...... that is what is happening.

Oh.... and the gear door removal is a sham. It gets rid of a couple actuators and doors, that's it. The problematic solenoid door sequencing valve is still there to give you trouble. Getting rid of the doors is kind of like getting your legs amputated to fix a leaky heart valve.

Not that any of that had anything to do with the crash. I did two 337 landings today with the gear down..... maybe we should tally up the successes instead of the failures!

[whoop_whoop]

I'm with Doc on this one...how you land gear up in anything is beyond my comprehension.

[pelmet]

My only experience with Skymaster gear is the old 210 style with the engine driven pump. I always wondered if you still had to pump the gear down on the power pack ones.... because they can't really free-fall like the Pipers. Your downlocks in a 337 are actually locking the gear 'up'.

But the power packs themselves are junk. They were designed for 1950s American convertibles, not aircraft. Since they are usually pressure-demand, if there is any blow by in any actuator, the system will bleed down and activate the pump.... wearing out the motor, the pump, and your alternator drives each time it actuates. If you see your ammeter spike every so often in your 172RG, 177RG, 210, 337, PA-28R, PA-32R, PA-34, PA-44...... that is what is happening.

Oh.... and the gear door removal is a sham. It gets rid of a couple actuators and doors, that's it. The problematic solenoid door sequencing valve is still there to give you trouble. Getting rid of the doors is kind of like getting your legs amputated to fix a leaky heart valve.

Not that any of that had anything to do with the crash. I did two 337 landings today with the gear down..... maybe we should tally up the successes instead of the failures!

Thanks....

I did a few flights with the engine-driven hydraulic type a long time ago in a turbo model. Didn't it have the neutral position for the gear handle once the gear was up or down? I think so. Remember it had a ceiling of 29,000 feet. Might be cold up there but the 337 does have a powerful heater in my experience.

I do remember vaguely, some occasional brief moments of pump operation with the gear up. That would be due to the bleeding down you talked about. Once I turned the master on and the pump was continuously running for a quite a while. Maybe a microswitch.

I suppose the gear door removal guys will tell you that the biggest advantage of removing the aft doors is safety. The 337 is the only plane I have come across where you leave the gear down if you have an engine failure right on departure. Due to high drag from the the aft doors opening for a good long time, the gear stays down until clear of obstacles....if you ever do clear them.

[GUMPS]

Seems my post was deleted. Maybe I was to subtle and light hearted compared to a few other posts on here. SO like Doc has said know where your bloody gear is before you land. It's that simple.

[CID]

Maybe the accident forum should be called "everyone's a crappy pilot except Doc". Seriously dude. You sure sit on a high horse. The pressure you place on yourself must be incredible. After all the crap you dish out to people who make mistakes you must be quite afraid of screwing up.

Doc, we're all human. Sometimes we make mistakes. We fall and get up again but you're setting yourself up for a pretty big fall.

[Diadem]

Doc was pretty forgiving of oldncold after he told his version of events in the Wabusk gear-up. That was nothing but straight-up pilot error, so why does the pilot of the 337 not get a pass too?

[pdw]

I don't think we've read oldncold got a "pass", nor that he was looking for one. There was no doubt left it was his responsibility. Being forthright, and in recognizing the admission ... readers could look at the situation with some more scrutiny. ie Why does it happen ? Maybe we know, but let us hear the descriptions ... or is there nothing further to learn.

A lesson is given to the readers of oldncold's admission. Good CRM is the goal everywhere, and a gear up accident comes with it's own unique package deal up there in every cockpit situation. The oldncold package contains two proficient pilots, one speaking up and one yet unheard (in peaceful discourse). Everyone sees there were two, but if only one is prepared speak up .... we don't get the other point of view how the CRM was working toward the failure from that point-of-view.

In the exchanges one can sure tell there is mostly a lot of fear for being left holding the bag as a gear-up guy/gal (a stigma to fear) yet oldncold has sort-of shown everybody you have to meet the challenge for what comes with this gear up aftermath. We begin to feel first hand the predicament you are in as a responsible pilot in a 'gear up' accident.

As a single pilot gear-up accident in this SK-thread, there is only one to confirm or deny how the accident set up, unless a pilot is willing to document every move that was involved and prepare to share it in a documentary ... like the recent floatplane (geardown on water) video.

The oldncold admission was not seen as a defense. That was the difference.

There must be some data how many gear up accidents / reports or how many are unreported (or even some estimate how many get covered up). There must have been so many to learn from already. The unknowns of how gear ups/mistakes happen could be hurting their prevention.

[AuxBatOn]

Has the pilot of the 337 accident defended his gear up here? Is that why Doc is telling this guy is an idiot that can't do his job and he didn't for oldncold?

Yup, somebody screwed up. Does that make him an idiot, or an horrible pilot? I don't think so. Accidents happen. Human factors are more often than not at cause. But, there are almost always CONTRIBUTING factors. Does that excuse the pilot? No. It just highlight potential issues that could lead others (Doc included) in a similar situation.

[flyinthebug]

pdw...not only is that one of your 1st posts that I actually understand, I also agree with you.

Well said, good post!

As for the guys jumping on Doc...He NEVER said he forgave the actions of oldncold...he did say he had a lot of respect for the man having the "jam" to come on a public forum and give his side of the story. There is a difference between "giving someone a pass" and being able to respect them for their courage or ability to be accountable. Often its character in a person that is their greatest asset.

In regards to this incident...I know the company and owner well. I worked for him as a pilot on a few contracts during slow winter months. We do not like each other and that's no secret to anyone that knows us...but I do not wish him this type of bad luck.

If anything, it was me that sort of gave oldncold a pass based on the breakdown of CRM, and his CP coming on this same public forum and defending oldncold as he did. However, in a C337, all you need to do is turn your head 90 degrees left, look down, and you will clearly see if the wheels are up or down. I will not throw stones as ive made my own stupid mistakes, I just believe that this one was 100% avoidable.

I sometimes defend pilots who make these types of errors (if they take responsibility for their actions and learn from it) and in oldncolds situation he was accountable for his actions, took responsibility, and had full support of his Chief Pilot. For that, people like Doc and I and others supported oldncold, but doesn't dismiss the fact that he did in fact have a gear up as a 12K TT pilot, and I don't recall reading Doc`s forgiveness for this.

I do not believe this 337 pilot needs to come on here and explain himself to a bunch of egotistical pilots either...and hopefully he too is taking responsibility for this. Unless we later learn there was a mechanical issue?

Fly safe all...and pdw, sincerely, I liked your post!

[pdw]

Thanks Flyinthebug.

Auxbaton, in the matter of "defense" is where I thought there is/was a general consensus (at least as far as I could tell). No one has been able to defend the actual 'non action' of leaving a land-aircraft's gear up for the airport landing (nor the amphib's gear down for the water landing in the case of a floatplane).