CYYJ Departures destined for Edmonton ??

[Gramps]

OK, I need a question answered, no speculation required, just facts please.

When we depart Victoria, usually rwy 09, with Edmonton as the destination, we inevitably get a left turn through 1000 feet to a 300 heading. Roughly 5 minutes into the flight, we get a right turn to 320 heading. There we sit, 320 heading, until at least through FL 230. I calculate that after nine minutes in the air, having climbed 22000 plus feet, we are no closer to destination than when the mains left the ground. Once through roughly FL 220, we get direct VIDRI, flight plan to Edmonton. Now I see on the flight tracker that WestJet departs rwy 09 and gets nothing but a northeasterly tract the entire way. I have been told that we get the northwesterly departure due to arriving Pacific traffic into YVR. Hmmmmm....

Why the discrepancy guys/gals?? And please, please don't say that I am just flight planning the wrong route. I have even called ACC and asked point blank what their preferred route would be to keep everyone happy. I file it, and we still get the NW departure heading. One day I was so frustrated, I filed CYYJ - Tofino NDB - Nanaimo NDB - VIDRI ELUNA CYEG. Hardly hit send when my phone rang, YVR IFR flight planning. Why did I file this route you ask? I simply wanted to make certain that, should I have a comm failure, I will be on a route that closely mirrors what we actually fly, not what we file. There is a big difference you know. Ensuing discussion revealed the error of my ways, after which I had a recommended preferred route given to file, file this and it will work I was told. I filed it, didn't work, sorry, still got the NW departure heading, still get it to this day.

So here I am, frustrated after being assured that nobody, not even the red or teal team, will get preferential treatment. Anyone with a computer and access to FlightAware can verify the facts as I have posted them.

Fly safe all...

"Gramps"

[HeadingAltitudeSpeed]

What's your aircraft type and rate of climb? Are the Westjet flights you refer to departing at the same time as you?

[Gramps]

C560 Ultra, 3000 fpm climb rate initially. As for departure times, we have departed morning, afternoon and evening, makes no difference at all...

Compare this flight profile (WestJet): http://flightaware.com/live/flight/WJA2 ... /CYYJ/CYEG

with this one for us: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/CGKZ ... /CYYJ/CYEG

It is frustrating for us, as our en route time from Victoria to Edmonton would be nearly identical to WJ. Now we have some of our people riding WJ back to Edmonton, after which they point out "we just took off and headed straight to Edmonton, not the 180 degree turn towards Tofino first".

It is frustrating, to say the least. Having flown in many parts of the world, this is the only departure procedure I can think of where you turn around and go the opposite direction first.

One of our guys is on WJ 258 today, leaving just after 0900 am. So we will see how he makes out.

Cheers,

"Gramps"

[kevenv]

I think you have to find a flight that left at the same time as you and was treated differently. As most of the controllers on here probably don't work YYJ terminal, it's hard to guess why your flight is treated the way it is at the time it is. I'm assuming that you have never departed and were given the turn while WJA was given a more direct routing?

[TA/RA]

Im going to take a stab at this one:

After having a look at the flight aware data on both your aircraft and Westjet and having flown that route dozens of times I think I may see what is happening and might have a solution that could work.

It looks like you typically file via VIDRI which is the normal routing that pretty much everyone out of CYVR files to CYEG. It looks like you are probably getting the northerly routing because they are climbing you above the aircraft on the WHISTLER ARRIVAL and trying to keep you clear of the Departures and arrivals for RWY 26 & 08 respectively.

Why does Westjet get the better routing? I have only one theory. My guess is that Westjet probably got the same routing years ago that you are getting now. I am sure that their pilots and ops people were just as frustrated as you are so t looks like they file a route that is not even close to direct to CYEG. They are filing (YYJ HUH J534 IWACK J503 YNY ALOHA ELUNA TILAX1) SEE ATTACHED IMAGE. As I am sure you are aware IWACK is on the US border just south of Princeton (YDC) this routing allows them to proceed eastbound while remaining with YJ Terminal and climbing without penetrating VR Terminal airspace.

If you look at their actual tracks, Westjet NEVER actually gets as far as IWACK because as soon as they are climbing eastbound and clear of the ARR/DEP for CYVR they are getting cleared direct to a point much closer to CYEG.

I see that you are in CYYJ today. Maybe try filing the Westjet routing as I posted above and see if you have better luck. On the OFP it is longer than filing via VIDRI but I'd imagine in actual track miles it is much shorter.

[TA/RA]

GRAMPS: did you try the routing suggested above?

[yvryyj]

The reason YYJ to YEG goes NW on a heading then direct vidri/seatn/lyton direct aloha on course is the structure of the in/out gates into yvr. There is an outbound corridor that parallels the boarder on a heading south of YDC then on course and another out gate that goes over vidri or north before heading east. The big in funnel goes from YDC up to about 10nm east of vidri with all a/c heading direct booth. ATC doesn't want YEG bound traffic from YYJ, YVR etc (except YXX, they go south) crossing through all the inbounds who will be descending for YVR. Makes for a possibly messy cross. Westjet asked if the YYJ to YEG flight could go the south route and were granted it. It doesn't always work out for them though as they do sometimes get stuck heading out past YDC before being turned north. That being said, usually they turn direct aloha early as they climb well and up to highs 30's and are above the inbound traffic before the cross. Hope that makes sense.

[Terminal Type]

File over HUH contrary to the preferential ifr route. Vancouver enroute is now willing to work yeg traffic over huh and then cross inbound vancouver ifr traffic in the flight levels. Until recently the conflicts were solved by routing you over nanaimo and north of yvr to Edmonton.

Yj term controller