Checklists

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Colonel Sanders
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Checklists

Post by Colonel Sanders »

A recurring subject on this website is the use
of checklists.

There are an awful lot of influential people in
aviation that think that all aircraft should be
operated in the same manner - a J-3 Cub
should be flown with the same massive checklist
as an 8-engine bomber. This is a matter of
serious religion.

As you might know, I'm not a fan of people
having their head down in the cockpit, losing
their situational awareness, as they plow through
a mighty checklist.

I am rather of fan of a cockpit flow. Start from
one side and work your way to the other.

This new idea shocks and appalls various people,
whom are tempted to call in a four-bar fatwah on me.

Well, last night I was reading a book about the WWII
BCATP program, and it mentioned a student converting
from a simple Fleet Finch to a mighty twin-engine Anson.

What did they teach?
Walter Miller of London, Ontario experienced "something
of a shock" when he first saw the instrument panel of
the twin-engined Anson aircraft, but "we soon learned
to do the cockpit check from left to right"
Gosh. What a new and revolutionary idea - from 70 years ago!
Those horribly undisciplined military pilots. When will they ever learn?
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Shiny Side Up
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Re: Checklists

Post by Shiny Side Up »

Checklists merely have a time and place. They're an aid to help you if/when you need it. If you have one, you should know why each item is where its at and the purpose of each part. They are not to be slavishly followed unquestioningly, nor are they there to absolve one of knowing the information you would need to know.

One should say as well that checklists are only made by human beings, be one should also be wary of "official" checklists (especially in private airplanes). When in doubt, find the operations manual, one will usually find it has a shorter list of items to be done. Either way, its something to review before your hand is on the starter.
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Re: Checklists

Post by FenderManDan »

I am a fan of checklists in general. I am still finding that i forget to close the carb heat after the landing from time to time. Checklist helps in this situation.

I agree that some ftus (not to be named) use ridiculously long checklists. I still have one from the ftu for keepsakes and it had more items then the boeing 757 my buddy flies for UPS.

Flow is good too when you fly the same bird often.
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Rookie50
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Re: Checklists

Post by Rookie50 »

I'm a fan of checklists to back up flow. As not all checklist items are completed at the same time, they are useful, like a line check before runway entry.
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Colonel Sanders
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Re: Checklists

Post by Colonel Sanders »

At the risk of incurring a four-bar fatwah, I really
think that a checklist is NOT a substitute for brains,
skill or knowledge that you should have had, before
you strapped into the airplane.

I have a dumb question. Most people here drive a
car. Do you have a checklist for operating a car?

START:
- open front left door
- sit down in front left seat
- close front left door
- put on seatbelt
- adjust seat
- adjust mirrors
- ensure transmission is in Park
- place foot on brake pedal
- insert key into ignition
- turn key and release after engine start
- ensure that critical engine warning lights are off
- adjust heat/airconditioning system temperature and flow as required
- turn on radio
- select radio station or CD
- set radio volume

If not, why not?

Do you have a checklist for taking a poop? If not, why not?

Do you have a checklist for riding a motorcycle? Driving
a power boat? Operating a sailboat? A chainsaw? A ladder?

If not, why not? All of the above are complicated equipment
which can kill you. According to the four-bar fatwah, you treat
some complicated equipment with respect, and some with
outright contempt.

I don't get that religion.
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Re: Checklists

Post by esp803 »

I find it a nice thing to review when switching back to a type I haven't flown in a while... I haven't used one in an airplane for quite some time. It helps when switching from the turbine to the radial.... damn things have "primers" and "Mixture" haha
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Cat Driver
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Re: Checklists

Post by Cat Driver »

Stupid is passed down from the top.

I remember when I had a flight school TC sent me a letter telling me to keep my OC valid I had to get " exit " signs and place them on the inside doors of my Cessna 150's.

So when stupid is part of the culture it stands to reason that check lists and SOP's and PDM training and believing in aliens and UFO's would be part of being a pilot.
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Doc
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Re: Checklists

Post by Doc »

I don't fly 300000 pound airliners or military jets, but for what I do fly, I don't believe in checklists. At all. For day to day flights, if you can't go with a flow, you should be (you just know I have to say this) flipping burgers! If something breaks...pull out the check list! Okay, I'll go with them for the first 50 hours or so....after that....
If you really need to read the words "GEAR DOWN" you sir, are an idiot!
Flame away, oh vastly experienced and opinionated ones. Flame away!
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Re: Checklists

Post by frog »

The way it works : first the PM does a flow and then does the check list challenging the PF. This way in no occasion both pilots have the nose down at the same time. And everything gets covered hopefully. Now for emergencies of course it is different.
Maybe not perfect but it works.
I can't see an airliner operated with flows only without the check list to double check...but hell, what do I know, I don't have you guys experience, (that is not a sarcasm).
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Re: Checklists

Post by Cat Driver »

For me it is in order of importance.

Memory:

Flow:

Check list: .... confirms nothing missed ....
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Re: Checklists

Post by frog »

I agree with you Cat.
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Cat Driver
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Re: Checklists

Post by Cat Driver »

Oh... I almost forgot.

To find my way out of the airplane I look for the " EXIT " sign thanks to the deep thinkers at TC who mandates the signs be put on the doors....especially in Cessna training aircraft.
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Re: Checklists

Post by YQLRookie »

It's interesting to follow this as a fresh PPL. At the school I trained at there was of course checklists for the 172s we flew, which we were always instructed to follow. During the initial flights I flew I'll admit I was pretty reliant on the checklist for the majority of the flight, with the exception of tasks that had to be done quicker due to their nature, such as checks in the circuit. I noticed on the downwind check in particular that the checklist did follow a right to left flow, starting with the fuel selector and working across to the locked primer. The flow makes sense, and it made certain tasks easier. I remember when I was preparing to go solo I was trying to memorize all of the emergency checks step by step, and it just didn't make sense and was easy to forget. However, when actually doing the tasks while practicing things like forced approaches I noticed that the emergency checks followed that logical flow, and I only had to nail down a few items unique to each emergency. Working with the flow in turn simplified other tasks like shut downs and post landing checks, and all in all made flying easier and more natural.

The flow also made it easier when I went for my checkout on the Piper Warrior, with the flow working just fine in a new aircraft, just had to add a few switches and different positioning. What I'm getting at is I think checklists have their place in initial training, provided the student learns from them and figures out why and how they're used and needed, so it becomes natural and intuitive. Just my opinion as a fresh private pilot flying the mighty PA28 - I'd like to make note though, I figured out how to find the exit without signs. 8)
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Cat Driver
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Re: Checklists

Post by Cat Driver »

I'd like to make note though, I figured out how to find the exit without signs. 8)
The signs are there for the morons at TC flight training, in case you get out of the airplane before them so they are not trapped inside.
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Re: Checklists

Post by Shiny Side Up »

Colonel Sanders wrote: I have a dumb question. Most people here drive a
car. Do you have a checklist for operating a car?
No, but I sort of wish I had some sort of easily accessible reference the other day when I drove my sister's car after I spent ten minutes looking for where to put the key, before figuring out it had only a push button start, or that damn Volvo that had that f@cked up extra lever to enter reverse. Or maybe that damn BMW bike with the cylinder lock. Either way, it illustrates the point of checklists, to help with learning something new, at least when it comes to basic machines. But then I'm odd in that I try to read before I do whenever possible.
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Re: Checklists

Post by CpnCrunch »

Colonel Sanders wrote: I have a dumb question. Most people here drive a
car. Do you have a checklist for operating a car?
Well cars don't have mixture controls, carb heat, primers and other things that will cause the engine to stop (and even if the engine does stop, it's not a big deal in a car).
. wrote: To find my way out of the airplane I look for the " EXIT " sign thanks to the deep thinkers at TC who mandates the signs be put on the doors....especially in Cessna training aircraft.
I suspect it might be more for passengers who are confused about where the door is after a crash. However it does seem a little ridiculous given that the door is always right next to the passenger in a bug smasher.
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Colonel Sanders
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Re: Checklists

Post by Colonel Sanders »

Ever notice that (extremely complicated) high tech
devices don't come with thick manuals any more?

People just turn them on, and expect to be able
to use them. And they are far, far more complex
than a nosewheel trainer.
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Re: Checklists

Post by Colonel Sanders »

cars don't have mixture controls, carb heat, primers and other things that will cause the engine to stop
Well, off the top of my head, motorcycles have

- a key, and
- an engine kill switch, and
- the sidestand has a switch that will kill the engine if it's in gear
- there's a bank sensor which kills the ignition if the bank is too great
- a choke for cold starts
- a more complicated fuel selector than many light aircraft

Should we use a checklist when riding a motorcycle? Would
it please the acolytes of the Checklist Religion (tm) if people
had their heads down, riding a motorcycle into an intersection,
reading a checklist instead of looking for traffic?
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Last edited by Colonel Sanders on Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Shiny Side Up
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Re: Checklists

Post by Shiny Side Up »

No, but I highly recommend reading the owner's manual before if one can.
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Re: Checklists

Post by Colonel Sanders »

Of course, but I think you might be suggesting
that people memorize some checks.

Who here uses a checklist, riding a motorcycle?

If not, why not?
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Re: Checklists

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

I think a big part of the problem is that most FTU,s do not teach the proper use of checklists.

For instance they do not know the difference between "Checklists" and "Do lists". Instead everything is treated as a Do list (ie you read an item then do it, then read the next time and do it etc etc) the is not too bad if the aircraft is stopped but is generally not a good idea if the aircraft is moving. In general single pilot operations should use flows , back up by a "Check" list that is consulted when operationally appropriate.

The other problem is too many use checklists as a training aid instead of its true purpose as a flight safety device. This is why we get the stupidly long FTU Checklist. The rule should be that the checklist should only contain items that missed/mis-selected/not function checked, will result in a degradation of flight safety. Using this criteria the checklist for a C 172 is pretty short.

Finally BPF's pet peeve. CPL's that need a Do list to do a run up in a C 172, something that seems to be the rule not the exception....
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Re: Checklists

Post by Colonel Sanders »

Does anyone here operate a power boat?

If so, do you use a checklist to start it?

Do you know what a bilge blower is?

This santimonious "Checklist Religion" has
gotten completely out of control. And if you
dare to question it, you are accused of heresy
and blasphemy, as if you were at the Salem
Witch Trials in 1692.

I'm sorry, but the cockpit of an airplane is
no place for nonsensical religions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials
The episode is one of the most notorious cases of mass hysteria, and has been used in political rhetoric and popular literature as a vivid cautionary tale about the dangers of isolationism, religious extremism, false accusations and lapses in due process.
Sounds like a pretty good description of the "Checklist Religion".
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Re: Checklists

Post by Rookie50 »

Cat Driver wrote:For me it is in order of importance.

Memory:

Flow:

Check list: .... confirms nothing missed ....
I agree. Checklist backs up my flow, and confirms it. However, whatever method makes the individual the safest pilot for him/ her, is the one that person should use. It is not for me to say someone else should use my method.
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Re: Checklists

Post by Rookie50 »

In my car, if I run out of gas, oil, get a flat, it simplly quits because i dont maintain it, or I drive into severe weather, I pull over.

This is not an option in an aircraft. I don't need to read evey word on a checklist to start and takeoff any 172, but as the complexity and systems goes up they are good to have to backup my memory.

Do you advocate take off into hard IFR, in a remote area, in a complex AC too just from memory? Not me. I don't have the proficiency, experience or currency to do so.
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Re: Checklists

Post by PilotDAR »

As BPF says, a checklist is not a do list, you should know to do from training, and based upon your familiarity with the aircraft use a checklist to verify that you did.

But if you're new to the type, or poor recency, a checklist might be a good idea. Some planes have odd systems, with troublesome (expensive) failure modes. I use the checklist in the Caravan, as I don't fly them often, and I'm told they become very expensive, if you try to start them with bleed air on.

My teal has a landing gear feature, which operated wrong, will require maintenance to restore. For new Teal pilots, using the checklist will be easier than getting the maintenance done.

I agree that basics like assuring that the gear is in the correct position for landing, or doors closed, or seat belts on, should be instinct, not checklist driven....
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