buying/owning info

[204pilot]

I am looking into the idea of purchasing an aircraft for time building and training, just trying to figure out if this is a viable option for me.
So far I've been able to find a lot of useful information through some searches but I cant seem to find much info laid out all in one place. I was wondering if anyone could point me in the right direction to some sort of an introductory guide, or where to find the regulations.
As well if anyone has gone this route I would love to hear your experience with it or any advice/tips.

Cheers

[xysn]

some sort of an introductory guide

http://www.copanational.org/files/COPAG ... rcraft.pdf

No experience with the time building or training though.

[Nark]

I recently bought an airplane and can offer some advice:
Do a prebuy. I found a problem that was somewhat easy to fix, knocked off several $$$ from the asking price, as this was leverage.

Figure out your budget, but don't purchase the full price of your budget. What I mean is that there will be tiny things that you need to buy on top of the airframe. For me, I bought a fuel totalizer to add to the array. $500, plus finding someone to install it will be another few hundred dollars.

Lastly, don't be a cheap ass.

Going out and finding your bird waiting for you, knowing there is fuel in it and ready to galavant across the country side is great.

[1000 HP]

I bought a Mooney M20F almost 3 years ago. I paid it off quickly. It's nice because it is there when I want it, and nobody lease chicken bones in the back or anything like that. I just got the autopilot repaired (it's never worked before so this is exciting), and I'm thinking of buying it either an oil cooler relocation kit & new alternator, aveo tip lights, or speed brakes for Christmas.
Is it cheap to own? Nope. But nobody is ramming the power to 100% in 3 seconds or running the oil for who knows how many hours. The wheels don't come down until 114 mph ever and the flaps don't even get selected until 105 mph. Something to be said about that.
I've put it up for sale because we are looking at buying a second house, and also I'm looking a faster, higher machine. I keep trying to quit flying but it is tough..
Right now it is in a heated hanger and full of fuel. I'm itching to get back home from the jungle. It's the second thing I'll take for a ride..

[AirFrame]

Well, of course... You'll have to ride the motorcycle to the airport first...

[LousyFisherman]

For your first plane try and find a partnership. You will learn an immense amount at much less cost.

Just my $0.00
LF

[Aeroplane17]

If i were you i'd buy a luscombe or a champ. You can find them at a very reasonable price (cheaper then c150's) with a 85hp continental you got the performance of a c172 with literally more then half the fuel burn. Also being a tailwheel aircraft you'll probably catch a case of good hands and feet. If not, get some good hull insurance. It will also be the most fun you'll ever have. Great airplane,cheap to buy,cheap to operate.

[Lotro]

I have spent countless hours pondering this decision. Here's where I always end up.

I want my own plane because I'm bad at sharing. Ownership means you can take it whenever you want, you know how it's maintained and you can have some piece of mind about it.

On the downside, it's friggen expensive.

The average private pilot only flies 50 hours per year. Most places will rent you a bug-smasher for around $175/hr wet. Which means you're going to spend $8750 a yer renting.

I have yet to find a plane I can buy, hanger, maintain, insure, fuel and fly safely for less than $8750/year.

So, if have the cash and you're prepared to spend more than that annually to fly, go do it (I'll be jealous).

Or, if you have a lifestyle (i.e. free time and money) and can fly 100+ hours per year the cost per hour will go down and be worthwhile (and I'll still be jealous).

Or find a partner or lease-back arrangement that allows you to lower your overheads significantly.

Otherwise, you're better off renting. At least, that's where I always end up.

Fly safe,

~Lotro

[kamikaze]

"I have yet to find a plane I can buy, hanger, maintain, insure, fuel and fly safely for less than $8750/year."

The hangar is likely to be your killer ... get rid of that, and things aren't so bad.

As for the "buy" part, depends over how long you'll amortize.

but you know, private ownership has never been about sound financials ... it's a passion/emotional thing ...

I just like owning a plane, end of story ... pride of ownership, working on it, getting to know it, etc.

[1000 HP]

"I have yet to find a plane I can buy, hanger, maintain, insure, fuel and fly safely for less than $8750/year."

The hangar is likely to be your killer ... get rid of that, and things aren't so bad.

As for the "buy" part, depends over how long you'll amortize.

but you know, private ownership has never been about sound financials ... it's a passion/emotional thing ...

I just like owning a plane, end of story ... pride of ownership, working on it, getting to know it, etc.

I agree with Kamikaze on everything except the hanger:

I have always put my bird in a hanger. My friend has a newer Mooney and always parked outside. A couple of years ago he got hailed on and had to re-skin the top of the entire airplane. It was quite an insurance bill. He also had a large amount of downtime and a larger annual insurance rate after that. On the plus side, he has new paint. On the downside, his maintenance log shows extensive damage that was repaired...Worse for resale.

My bird has a 1994 paint job, which other that a few "bug smashes", looks almost like new. I am thinking of building a hanger though. Better to rent space out that to pay for it.

[photofly]

It depends where you are. For the cost of hangar space at my local airport I could strip and re-paint the aircraft annually.

In fact I could throw the aircraft away after 10 years and I'd be way way ahead of having paid to hangar it.

[Big Pistons Forever]

At the moment airplanes are very easy to buy but very hard to sell. I compared the COPA airplane for sale adverts from 6 months ago with the current one and most of the add were for the same airplanes. So if you plan to buy a plane do all your training in a year or so and then sell you may have a real problem getting out of the aircraft. Also most trainers for sale are at or over TBO and are probably for sale because expensive maintenance is coming due. You also need to be aware of the actual costs of parts. They are much more expensive than most people realize and an engine overhaul (typically in the $20 K to 25 K range including all the labour and ancillary costs) exceeds the selling price of most 2 seaters.

As was stated above a though prepurchase inspection is an absolute necessity and you should expect to pay $500 or more to get the aircraft really looked at.

The nightmare scenario is the story of a fellow I met once that bought a beater C 150 with an on condition engine to use to build up his time. He bought it for "only" 18 K, but after only 20 hours the engine started running very roughly. When the AME pulled the screen it was full of metal, the engine was toast. His AME found another high time engine but the engine mount was cracked and the carb air box needed a repair etc etc. It cost him 10 K to get back in the air, then his radio died, the radio shop said it was too old to repair. He got another unit off E-bay but it never worked, then he lucked out and found a working unit for $1000 but he lost a month of summer flying screwing around, then he needed a new shimmy damper, then new brake discs, then a new elevator trim cable.........He finally finished his CPL and then tried to sell his airplane. A year later it was still for sale and he was desperate so he took a low ball 12 K just to get some money back. Bottom line when all his costs were totaled each hour he flew the aircraft cost him 275 $ an hour plus what he paid for his instructor........

I tell anyone who asks that it IMO buying an aircraft as a short term purchase for training and time building is too risky a proposition unless you are prepared to lose the entire purchase price.

[photofly]

I compared the COPA airplane for sale adverts from 6 months ago with the current one and most of the add were for the same airplanes.

Statistically invalid sample due to sampling bias: the ones you saw week after week are the ones that were priced too high to sell. The ones where the owner was motivated to sell sold within two weeks and you never saw them again. Ergo your unjustified interpretation that planes aren't selling.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I compared the COPA airplane for sale adverts from 6 months ago with the current one and most of the add were for the same airplanes.

Statistically invalid sample. The ones you saw week after week are the ones that were priced too high to sell. The ones where the owner was motivated to sell sold within two weeks and you never saw them again. Ergo your unjustified interpretation that planes aren't selling.

Photofly

It is a fact that many airplanes are listed for a long time before they are gone. Not all of them are overpriced. What "facts" are you basing your contention that a motivated seller could move his airplane in 2 weeks ? I sure don't see even quite reasonably priced airplanes selling very fast.

My observation is that the majority of the lowtimers that I have personal knowledge of , that tried the "buy plane to build time and then sell it " strategy, saved little to no money over renting the time. One I know did luck out and put 200 hours on a machine with virtually no repairs required and then moved it for same price he paid for it, but this certainly does not seem to be the norm. And like I posted earlier, one would have spent less if he had rented a twin instead of buying a C 150.

I stand by my contention that over a short time frame buying an airplane flying it to get your CPL and then selling it is unlikely to be significantly cheaper than renting and if you get the wrong airplane could be a nightmare.......

[ahramin]

My personal experience with owning an aircraft for time building was that it came out to a little under half the rate the local schools were charging at the time. Flew 100 hours a year and didn't insure the hull.

From what I can see in Canada right now though aircraft simply aren't changing hands the way they used to. Fewer people are buying old airplanes, the price of fuel is high and unstable, and most owners simply aren't willing to admit that their aircraft aren't worth what they paid for them.

[cgzro]

Owning can be inexpensive if you buy a good plane and sell before it needs anything major, but one engine problem and the rental price will look trivial in comparison. Even a good pre purchase may not show a looming engine issue, but is essential regardless.

[iflyforpie]

Yep...... owing a light aircraft for training is kind of like playing hot potato.

With a bit of research and luck, you can get all of your capital costs back out of it.... and if you manage to bang off your training in one year, you will only pay for one annual, oil changes (or change it yourself), and one years insurance and parking on top of direct costs..... way less than renting. If you could find a way to transport yourself back to the 80s or 90s.... you could even get the capital costs to pay for your other costs.

However, with light aircraft losing nearly half their value in the naughties.... and throw in an overhaul or major work...... then the old adage that if it flies, floats, or fornicates definitely applies.

[BGH]

I'm probably way to late to this conversation & will probably rehash what's already been said but............

Try to purchase a plane that seats more than 2 if the budget allows so that if you're trying to sell it you can still have a little fun while taking along some friends,or camping gear.
Always get a pre-purchase from someone other than the person who's been looking after it - pay to have it flown off field if need be to get an independant opinion & expect to pay for all costs associated with it.
While having the prepurchase done find out if you can park it at your favorite airport & how much that's going to cost.
Get an idea on how much & what kind of fuel it burns & get an average from a few of your local airports & then figure out how much you're going to fly it.
Dig into your logbook & then call a local broker to see how much insurance is going to cost you.
Get the avionics maker & age & go talk to a couple of avionics repair people to see how expensive it is to repair,or replace if something goes wrong.
Flying in the lower mainland - budget a pitot/static test every 2 years.
Now ask the mechanic that did the pre-purchase how much an annual will run & what they see as needing repairs on that make & model on a recurring basis.
Add money for engine & prop reserves.
When you get a number then divide that number into something that gives you an idea of what it's costing per hour.
Don't forget the annual government cost (roughly $70) & budget for extra costs when you land at any airport that has landing fees.
Also remember to keep your nav books & charts up to date.

A high time,properly & well maintained aircraft can be a good purchase providing you have all the history & a very thorough pre-purchase done by a mechanic that is completely familiar with the type.

Daryl

[photofly]

Photofly

It is a fact that many airplanes are listed for a long time before they are gone. Not all of them are overpriced.

By definition, they are. If the goal is to sell, and nobody wants to buy them at the offered price - they're overpriced.

What "facts" are you basing your contention that a motivated seller could move his airplane in 2 weeks ? I sure don't see even quite reasonably priced airplanes selling very fast.

Let's take the example of your friend. As soon as he was ready to place a sensible value on his aircraft, he was able to sell it.

You and he might both have thought the price was lowball, but the error is in thinking that your and his opinion of the price is determinative. The opinion that counts - the only opinion that counts - is the one held by the pool of people looking to buy that model of airplane.

[photofly]

In my search for an airplane I found a surprisingly large proportion of vendors whose goal was in fact to not sell their airplane; what they actually were looking for was confirmation that nobody was prepared to pay it's "true" value so they justify being "forced" to keep it. Clues that you're standing in front of this kind of person are tell-tale phrases like "my wife wants me to sell it", "I need the cash to give my wife in the divorce" and "I love this airplane, I've spent so much money on it". Run - don't walk - away from these people.

Also run away from anyone who has calculated the exact dollar amount they've spent on maintaining or upgrading an airplane. These are idiots of the first degree who don't understand that nobody cares and invariably think that their spending should somehow influence your buying.

If you can avoid being one of these people when you come to sell you should find it a lot easier to reach a deal acceptable to both sides.

[1000 HP]

I know my airplane is priced higher than the USA market. You can pick up a similar or better equipped airplane for $10 to $20,000 less stateside. This is a fact. Perhaps if you factor in the trip down there, the import fee and inspection, the cost to repaint the registration, and who knows what else it missed, it might be similar.
Buying an airplane locally is easier but if you have the time and can gamble, do it.

As far as buying an airplane for training or time-building purposes. I did it. I bought a 1957 90HP 7EC Champ. I did this after getting a commercial license because I could not afford the pay cut to take a flying job. I flew it about 190 hrs in 19 months, and sold it at a $2000 loss. It burned 4 gph and about a quart of oil per 7 hours.

I thought that was a good deal because I sold it still in nice shape and before the fabric fell off or the engine exploded.

[cap41]

2 people doing CPL. bought a 150 for 18K. After all bills paid we could give the plane away and be ahead on cost. 400 hrs in 14 month.

[xchox]

For your first plane try and find a partnership. You will learn an immense amount at much less cost.

Just my $0.00
LF

X2

[photofly]

the cost to repaint the registration

$110 for two vinyl decals from my high street print shop. Don't sweat it.

[1000 HP]

Sorry I don't buy that. Not too many Mooney owners would put giant stickers on their airplanes. When they peel or bubble, all that money you spent for a few extra knots is out the window. I friend of mine paid $2500 to paint new registration on his US import and it was cheaper than a lot of shops.