Radio Proceedure

sky's the limit · Post by **sky's the limit** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 8:30 am

I hear a number of fixed-wing drivers getting on those of us flying helicopters for not using, or even turning on the radios. To this I have a comment:

I would rather not turn it on at all than listen to the appalling proceedures, drawn out broadcasts, and phrasology displayed by many of you airplane boys. Oh, I say "boys" because generally the women are much better.

I happened through Ft. McMurray (Mildred Lake) on a busy day a few weeks ago, and if one were to delete the a/c type from the broadcast, there would be little discernable difference in quality of broadcast between the C206's, 185's, Citations, King Air's and Metros. The utter lack of useful information broadcast is mind boggling. What ever happened to who you are, where you are, and what you're doing??? Sounding like the 16,000hr 47 driver is fine, but for God's sake give us some relevent information. I'm not saying every transmission is terrible, but the percentage of good ones is not as high as it should be.

"Any conflictions please advise on 123.2" WTF???? The point of broadcasting your location and intentions is already clear, using words like this is unessesary and takes up radio time. I already know you're on 123.2 because that's the MF, you don't need to tell me. If I'm 1.5 miles from you heading the same direction with a sling load, chances are I'm not in "confliction" with you, but would probably like to let you know what I'm up to as well. Oh I forgot, only "conflicting traffic (may) advise."

I don't care how cool you guys feel in your jets or turbo-props, use the damn radio for it's intented purpose please. I'm sure while the auto-pilot is taking you to Calgary or Edmonton for the 4th time that day, you can use your latest CRM course to come up with an acceptable, short, to the point transmission.

grimey · Post by **grimey** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 8:48 am

When helicopter pilots decide to switch off of the MF to have a conversation on another frequency, can they please not choose my vehicle frequency to do it? Especially when I have 8 aircraft on my board? It kinda keeps me from hearing the MF. And yea, this happened a few weeks back.

Just about everyone I hear on the radio could use some work (myself included), it's not just the guys in the planes.

sky's the limit · Post by **sky's the limit** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 8:54 am

I'm sure they just wanted to lighten your load by making sure you couldn't communicate with the ground, just trying ot be courteous I'm sure!

The young girl in the YMM FSS is exceptional on the radio, everyone should listen to her and take some points from it. In my post I never said helicopters pilots were better, we're not supposed to be. The FW guys are all trying SOOOO hard to sound great, they forget to say anything relevent. Anyway, this should get interesting.

Cheers

wha happen · Post by **wha happen** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 9:41 am

my standard call is:

Hi, my name is craig, i like holding hands and long walks on the beach, preferably around sunset. My favorite color is purple. In my spare time i like bubble baths and kenny g music. Any interested contact craig on 123.2

Rudy · Post by **Rudy** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 9:52 am

Bahahaha.

grimey · Post by **grimey** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 10:01 am

sky's the limit wrote:I'm sure they just wanted to lighten your load by making sure you couldn't communicate with the ground, just trying ot be courteous I'm sure!

Oh I know they were, they just picked (for me) the second worst frequency possible.

Only 121.5 would be worse, since I can't turn the volume down on it. I do think that the CFS should have "don't use" frequencies for various airports, though, to prevent crap like that. Our ground frequency is 0.1 above the MF, so it's an easy one to switch to, but it's not published anywhere, AFAIK.

Rowdy · Post by **Rowdy** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 10:03 am

Im gonna chime in here as I get frustrated by all the rambling calls and stuttering on the radio. I've also noticed a ton of people in the area who seem to get stage fright on the radio and forget half of what they were supposed to say.

If there was some uniformity to the calls Im sure we'd have less conflictions and problems. I take it upon myself to be proffesional, quick and precise.

"Citabria FCM over the 200th interchange at 1500 northeastbound" Everybody knows what frequency you're calling on, they know to call if theres a confliction and if they don't thats why you've got a keen set of eyes watching out for em.

What bugs me is "near the... or close to the..." how is that supposed to help? thats a pretty big area to be looking in. are you three miles north? south? right over it?

You'd think as a group of proffesionals we'd try and emphasize this on the radio! I don't mean talking like an AC 340 Capt either...

altiplano · Post by **altiplano** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 10:11 am

Here's my .02...

I don't think it is appropriate for you to blame others for your admitted poor airmanship. I agree, some people just like to hear themselves talk, but it's no excuse to turn off the radio and not report at all, set an example if you're such a professional.

Beechball · Post by **Beechball** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 10:11 am

Drives me crazy too and I'm fixed wing...
Conflictions... nice!
Oh yeah, If I can hear you I'm probably monitoring the same freq as you... Get it? No need to spell it out!

grimey · Post by **grimey** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 10:20 am

Beechball wrote: Oh yeah, If I can hear you I'm probably monitoring the same freq as you... Get it? No need to spell it out!

This one I can understand actually. I'm not sure how your radios are set up in the aircraft, but in the flight service station, they all play over the same speaker. So if you call on guard, the MF, or my vehicle frequency, I can't tell the difference if I'm not looking at the console (and sometimes I can't even then). I'd assume (maybe I'm wrong) that at least some aircraft with two radios can monitor two frequencies at once over the same headset. So did the guy call you on the PAL, or on 126.7?

"Conflicting advise" is retarded, IMO though.

Beechball · Post by **Beechball** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 10:59 am

That's a valid point. If we consider in the air only, Class G space with run of the mill uncontrolled airport with an MF, then maybe when monitoring the MF and 126.7 we might not know which freq the advisory was transmitted. However generally on the MF it's 5 min before entering and 126.7, 15 min before approach or when starting the descent. This way it's fairly easy to deduce which freq is being used if proper procedures are being followed.

. ._ · Post by **. ._** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:39 am

wha happen wrote:my standard call is:

Hi, my name is craig, i like holding hands and long walks on the beach, preferably around sunset. My favorite color is purple. In my spare time i like bubble baths and kenny g music. Any interested contact craig on 123.2

I gotta use that, but my name is Graham, not Craig.

grimey · Post by **grimey** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 3:16 pm

Beechball wrote:This way it's fairly easy to deduce which freq is being used if proper procedures are being followed.

Considering how many people I've had to write up for not calling 5 minutes prior to the estimated time of starting an IFR approach lately...

pilot:
"XYZ radio, FABC, ifr from ZYX, we're 15 north on the arc for 01, estimating in 10"

me (off radio):
"you &#*@*#* dumbass"
(on radio)
"roger <advisory> report intercepting the loc."

edit...

Even better is when they're 35 back, and tell me they'll be starting the approach in 4 (and they probably start it in 4:59). You morons. Here's a hint: I might be able to tell if you're on the arc, but I probably can't tell the difference between starting an approach in 4 vs 5. So why do you insist on shooting yourselves? Within reason, I can't write you up for missing an estimate by a bit. Sure, if you land in five, or are off by 50% or something stupid(damn you TC pilots), you're probably getting written up. But if you tell me you're estimating in 4, I HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO WRITE YOU UP. You've just told me you've violated CARs.

That said, I can't understand why (up here at least) pilots leave it to the last minute. Call 20 minutes out, for all I care. Sure, you're not getting an accurate traffic picture of what'll be there when you arrive, but that's why I'll update you when you call handed over.

sky's the limit · Post by **sky's the limit** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 3:53 pm

I knew this would be fun!

For the record, the "switching the radios off" comment was tongue in cheek for "helicopter pilots are really bad on the radio..." I personally come from an extensive FW background, and try to be as clear and concise as I can, not always perfect, but I do think about what comes out of my mouth before I say it.

An interesting exercise is to fly in a country where the Queen's English is not the language of choice - THEN you learn to make things short and to the point.

I suppose it's the rambling that gets me the most.

And Grimey, in the poor guy's defence, if the freq isn't published, how were they supposed to know?!

I'll put out a company memo that 121.5 is prefered for chat...!

Blue Yonder · Post by **Blue Yonder** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:44 pm

Beechball wrote:...Oh yeah, If I can hear you I'm probably monitoring the same freq as you... Get it? No need to spell it out!

I find it quite helpful to hear what frequency you just talked on. Sometimes I'm monitoring not one but two radios at the same time, a few of our aircraft have a third comm, definatly narrows it down for me.

-Blue

tripleseven · Post by **tripleseven** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:50 pm

Grimey, I see your point.

However, sometimes when I call at the top of our decent (50 miles back and about 10-15 min back), the FSS operator just says, "Wind XXX at XX, altimeter, XX.XX. Call me at 20 dme for the advisory". Well, you know what? I'll try, but I won't guarantee anything. I'm busy trying to talk to center, company, some guy on 126.7 that is going to become an issue, the flight attendant, the passengers and doing about four checklists, not to mention briefing an approach. You can probably expect to be called at 5 dme. If I forget, I'll call you on final or at the FAF. I satisfied the CARS by calling you at least 5 min back about 10 minutes ago. I've been handed off by center intercepting the loc, 2 miles from the beacon in the past. If I only had one radio, you would likely get my 20 mile advisory from center on the hotline.

No disrespect intended, but just letting you know what is happening on our end.

swordfish · Post by **swordfish** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:44 pm

errr, hello? If you're on the mandatory frequency, why do you need to tell everybody else, who is also on the frequency?

Confliction?? It's not even a word...falls into the same category as "formulation"...formula, formulate, formulation, formulationize, formulationization...where does it stop?

You don't need to solicit conflicts...the thinking pilot can work out for him/herself if there's a conflict. And generally resolve it better than FSS. What they DO need to know is how fast we are relatively, and if we're going to arrive at the same spot at the same time.

There's way too much being said on the radio these days. Even the FSS go on and on...preserve me - a helicopter is not traffic unless it's at our altitude, and bearing down on the same landing spot as we are at the same time. Traffic 5-15 miles away is not traffic. It's going to take them a definable amount of time to intercept, unless we're overtaking them.

For professional development, everyone (who hasn't already) should go to Europe, and emulate their brevity, conciseness, and clarity. A possible solution over here is to figure out what you're going to say BEFORE you key the mic, then keep your mind on the task.

Only those aircraft right in our vicinity are traffic. Actually, helicopters are skilled at staying out of the path of FW traffic.

One more thing: you should be giving ETA's not ETE's. That gets confusing between distance and time. And the closer to the landing you get, the more important 'seconds' become. It never was standard phraseology, and isn't now. It may be convenient once a communication link is established, but it's lazy.

ODA · Post by **ODA** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 7:52 pm

My favourite is when someones calls on 26.7 that they are taxing for depature on such and such runway blah blah blah and there is a MF for that airport. It's normally heard with a bunch of squeeling because there guranteed to be stepping on someone.

flyinhigh · Post by **flyinhigh** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 9:16 pm

The ones that I really like is the float drivers.
There calls are, FABC airbourne such and such a lake northeast bound..

umm, K first not everyone knows what lake your in, like myself so you will always get where abouts is that? second northeast bound to where?
for all I know were on a collision course for each other..

anyway

rotorfloat · Post by **rotorfloat** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:50 am

It doesn't bother me too much if people try to use their 'cool' voice on the radio, (I sound just like Barry White...women go crazy!) as long as pertinent info is conveyed. What drives me nuts is the fast talkers, who think they have to get their ident, location and intentions in less than 1.2 seconds.

Oh, and those who key their mike and hold it, before knowing what they're going to say, is another peeve for me.

SierraPoppa · Post by **SierraPoppa** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:50 pm

grimey wrote: Considering how many people I've had to write up for not calling 5 minutes prior to the estimated time of starting an IFR approach lately...

I HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO WRITE YOU UP. You've just told me you've violated CARs.

Did anyone ever tell you that you were hired as a Flight Service Specialist NOT a cop. There is no way you have to write the pilot up. It is a discretionary call at best. If it causes an incident then you have no choice but to say he admitted to violating CARS therefore I have to write him up is ridiculous.

I worked thirty years as a controller and only ever wrote up one person. Did you ever think that instead of being a jerk and writing the pilot up you could mention in a polite way that you require the report five minutes prior to the approach as per CARS.

FREEFALL · Post by **FREEFALL** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:23 pm

Hey grand poppa, if you ask and ask the same pilot over and over again politely what you're required to have (by CAR's) and they still mess it up. Then ya, write them up. Maybe then they will learn how to do their job!

Ack Ack A Dak, Dak Dak A Ak!!!!

SierraPoppa · Post by **SierraPoppa** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:40 pm

FREEFALL wrote:Hey grand poppa, if you ask and ask the same pilot over and over again politely what you're required to have (by CAR's) and they still mess it up. Then ya, write them up. Maybe then they will learn how to do their job!

Correct young Grasshopper.

But you sure as hell don't have to do it the first time he screws up. That's just being a dickhead on a power trip. I'll bet that when those violations get to enforcement most of them end up in file thirteen.

As I said not hired to be a cop, hired to provide a service. Don't ever lose sight of the fact that if it wasn't for pilots you wouldn't have a job.

Boss Hawg · Post by **Boss Hawg** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 2:43 pm

sky's the limit wrote:For the record, the "switching the radios off" comment was tongue in cheek

Maybe so but there are float drivers who do that very thing, and probably others as well. Not that it's right or anything, but it does happen. Usually prompted by certain yahoos in our area who like to hear themselves talk.

This was all discussed recently in the Bush flying forum.

FREEFALL · Post by **FREEFALL** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:09 pm

If I am not mistaking, and correct me if I'm wrong, but all CAR's violations are to be reported to TC. AS SOON AS PRACTICABLE!!!