And now people want to complain, officially.....

[teacher]

And now people want to complain officially about their lack of champagne service on a beer budget flight:

HALIFAX -- Some passengers angered by air travel ordeals say its time airlines in Canada be required to publicly disclose complaints of baggage problems, cancelled flights and tarmac delays, just like their counterparts do south of the border.

Tiffany Flowers said she waited six days in Halifax after a weather delay cancelled her Jan. 3 Porter Airlines flight to Montreal, despite clear days in both cities. Flowers said her autistic son, 14, missed a medical appointment to adjust his medication as a result."You're at the mercy of the airlines," said the 32-year-old student and graphic designer. Flowers said Ottawa should post airline records for delays, baggage mishandling and cancellations online for travellers."People put their lives in the hands of these airline companies, and we have no record," she said. Brad Cicero, a spokesman for Porter Airlines, said in an email that severe weather and fully booked flights led to a seat shortage. He said the company is reviewing how it operates when there are weather disruptions.

Michael Janigan, a lawyer for the Public Interest Advocacy Centre in Toronto, said an overhaul of passenger rights laws is needed, beginning with public disclosure of complaints on mishandled baggage, boarding denials due to overbooking, cancellations and delays. He said the federal government could follow the model of the U.S. Department of Transportation website, which posts such records online.
"What we have here is a complete lack of keeping performance statistics like we have in the United States ... to keep track of barometers of airline success," Janigan said.

A spokeswoman for Transport Canada said in an email there is no law in Canada requiring airlines to publicly disclose consumer complaints. She did not comment on whether Ottawa keeps any records internally. "The government continues to monitor the situation and will take whatever measures are required to ensure consumers are treated fairly," said Karine Martel.

Marc-Andre O'Rourke, executive director of the National Airlines Council of Canada, said in an email it is difficult to comment on a public disclosure system since no proposal is before the government.
"Each airline has a very different type of operation and network," he added. "This means varying numbers of passengers, baggage, number of connections, etc. As such it makes timely and useful comparisons more difficult.He said on-time performance statistics are tracked for some flights on FlightStats, a privately run website.

But Brooklyn Elhard, whose Air Canada flight from Orlando, Fla., to Toronto was delayed Jan. 4 for two days due to mechanical problems, said she wants more information about airlines in the future.
"It would change the way people travel if they actually knew what they were signing up for," said the 24-year-old music student. Elhard's flight took off for Toronto but returned to Orlando after experiencing the mechanical problems. She said money was provided for meals but that didn't fully cover the cost, a taxi refused to honour an Air Canada voucher, baggage was left unattended on a carousel for more than an hour and a subsequent flight was cancelled when a warning light came on in the cockpit of the same plane.

Isabelle Arthur, an Air Canada spokeswoman, said in an email passengers on the flight were offered discounts for future travel and said the incident occurred as the airline was struggling with extreme weather conditions that reduced the availability of aircraft and crew.

Statistics on the Canadian Transportation Agency's website indicate the number of complaints handled informally by the agency has grown over the past year.

From April 1 to Sept. 1 of last year, the agency was involved with 230 Canadian airline complaints after passengers tried to resolve them matters with their airlines. That compares to 143 complaints for the same time period the year before. But Janigan said the agency's complaints-based system isn't particularly consumer-friendly, and he sees a need for an airlines complaint advocate and tougher enforcement laws. The agency said passengers who formally complain to the agency must show that a domestic airline's compensation rules for problems such as damaged baggage, cancelled flights and refused boardings aren't reasonable based on existing law, rules of natural justice and evidence.

Janigan said he prefers the enforcement penalties the U.S. Department of Transportation sometimes imposes if it finds airlines are violating set rules on minimum compensation rates.

In 2013, Delta Airlines was penalized $750,000 for improperly bumping passengers due to overbooking, while United Airlines was fined $1.1 million for stranding passengers aboard airplanes on the tarmac during a weather delay in Chicago in July 2012.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/air-travel ... -1.1645307

[BibleMonkey]

Lewis Ck ,
Everythings amazing and nobodys happy


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=aba_1332656862

oldy but still funny
"....and then we had to sit on the runway for 40 MINUTES ..."

Passengers should only be compensated if arrival takes longer than 30 years .

[digits_]

Could this not be a good thing ? I don't have any "official" statistics, but if I listen to my friends/family or the mighty internet, I notice that the complaints regarding airlines are not about technical malfunctions or weather delays, it's about how such occurences are dealt with. Which implies it's all about customer service. Isn't this the area where the big expensive airlines score better than the low cost alternatives ?

So if the government/a company starts keeping track of such complaints, this would most probably favour the big ones, which are also the companies that -in general- pay better pilot wages.

==> Big win for pilots ?

[FurHat]

I don't buy it. This sounds more like after years of low balling and buying the cheapest ticket, no matter what, the flying public doesn't like what it has created. In typical Canadian fashion, it must be the government's job to fix this.

Sorry, but you can't have it both ways. For delays, staffing and the general quality of air travel to improve, people are going to have to pay. The government can't legislate good attitudes.

[teacher]

Exactly, pay up or put up with what you just paid for.

As for the CK clip, always LOVED that. Pretty much sums it up.

[Old fella]

These people(or complainers, whatever) are the same ones who demand $69.00 + change one way fares YHZ-YYZ, so you get delayed due some Maritime WX - suck it up, sweetie.

Having said that, there has to be a better way to handle issues that happened in YFC few weeks ago with CanJet. You would treat cattle better than that.......

[lownslow]

You would treat cattle better than that.......

As you should, I bet the cows are paying more for their tickets.

LnS.

[Dockjock]

It comes down to a lack of staff at the airport. The system is designed to operate in ideal conditions, so when conditions are not ideal, there are nowhere near enough people (airline staff) available to help out. Service improves when you have more people working in customer service. But more staff costs more money. Simple as that.

[LousyFisherman]

Given the professional attitude displayed on this forum towards the people who allow the company to make payroll, no wonder your clients want somewhere to complain where they will not be ignored and treated worse than cattle.

YOUR ATTITUDE IS THE PROBLEM. Lie to yourself, not to those who live in the real world and have to suffer for it. Customer service in the Canadian air travel market is an oxymoron.

Just my $0.00 worth
LF

[FurHat]

Given the professional attitude displayed on this forum towards the people who allow the company to make payroll, no wonder your clients want somewhere to complain where they will not be ignored and treated worse than cattle.

YOUR ATTITUDE IS THE PROBLEM. Lie to yourself, not to those who live in the real world and have to suffer for it. Customer service in the Canadian air travel market is an oxymoron.

Just my $0.00 worth
LF

I agree, attitude is the problem. Thing is, that isn't going to change until there are more staff at the airports, more spare aircraft and crews to cover irops. All of these things cost more money, which Canadians simply aren't willing to pay. Government legislation isn't going to fix a bad attitude.

The attitude you see on this forum is from the frustration all of us in the industry feel, when we know that no matter how hard we personally try, how good of a product we manage to deliver, the consumer's next choice for air travel is based solely on the price of the fare. Canadians have gotten the airlines they deserve.

[Beefitarian]

Both those points are somewhat true. I believe customer service has become noticeably lower but the customers make flying much less enjoyable also in my opinion.

After the fasten seatbelts sign goes out at the gate. I sit and try to relax in my seat waiting for the cattle to finish fighting to be first off the plane even though they are at the back. I am reasonably sure the entire plane would be empty 5 minutes or more faster if people could settle down to allow an orderly flow.

[Old fella]

As a fare paying pax(I never worked with any airline in any capacity), it has been my experience - long one at that, fellow travellers make flying much less enjoyable like it used to be 30+ yrs ago. Yes, we all understand this new reality of low fares, less staff, do more with much less and the usual banter but simple things as an example not crowding a departure gate waiting, especially if boarding is by row/seat number and clogging up so those with the correct assignment as called, cannot get through. Happens to me all the time - talk about cattle. I witnessed a person ripping into an Air Canada gate official when she very politely requested those who haven't been called, please move back This isn't poor attitude by Air Canada or being unhelpful - it's an asshole traveller

[doorhandle27]

Airlines still need to be accountable for delays and cancellations regardless of the fare the passenger has paid. If you sell a service, you must provide said service, when service is disrupted, you must explain what the problem is. This has nothing to do with Louis CK, pax buying the cheapest fares possible or un-professional pilots coming on this bored bashing passengers asking why their flight was delayed for 2 days.

On a recent trip, half of our group experienced delays out of yyz, yow, yyc, and yvr all in excess of 6 hours, both ways. Two people didn't receive their bags and one flight was delayed for 30hrs. Now, don't you think the airline should have a response and an answer as to why such lengthy delays were taken and where the bags have gone? No answers, other than, it's the weather. I'm a pilot, and I get pissed off when answers to basic questions are not given truthfully, it makes me wonder why. Am I to blame purely because the airfare was a relatively low price? Am I to blame because I expected a reasonable level of service in exchange for payment? Am I to blame because some people think flying is a privilege and not a right? Huh.

If I pay for insurance, wreck my car and call my broker, would I be upset if they didn't respond for 30 hrs and then tell me they couldn't get back to me because the phone was busy? Would it be my fault because I paid a reasonably competitive fee? Should I just have to wait and not worry about anything because car insurance isn't a right, merely a privilege?

I'm pretty sure that when I hand over my had earned money to someone in exchange for a service, I'm entitled to a reasonable level of service for what I have paid for. Sure, I understand that you get what you pay for, but some things are a bit excessive. Do I have a right to file a complaint if my flight is delayed 30hrs and my baggage doesn't show up for 4 days without explanation, on a chartered flight? Ya I think I do, and if you think not, well, maybe you just haven't been in that situation.

Here is a woman that bought a Porter flight to take her child to see a group of Doctors in another city. Her flight is cancelled for several days and she's upset as she hasn't been given a reasonable answer as to why. The weather was bad over the xmas break, but still, she's entitled to a response as to why she has to re-book appointments and take more time off work. I wonder what would happen if all of her doctors had cancelled those appointments on her arrival with little explanation.

People have a right to know, and don't tell me the decline of the airline industry is the fault of the paying public and in return they should receive nothing for handing over their money. Act a little more professional, we all harp on about the decreasing level of professionalism within our industry yet few seem to want to take any ownership over it. It's always someone else complaining or someone else's fault, the airline, management, ATC, TC, whoever else. Step up for once, service has been a dismal joke over the past month or so. This is proving to be a challenging winter, if things are slow, we owe it to our customers to explain properly what has happened and how we plan to deal with it.

The travelling public is you too.

[grimey]

"You're at the mercy of the airlines," said the 32-year-old student and graphic designer. Flowers said Ottawa should post airline records for delays, baggage mishandling and cancellations online for travellers."People put their lives in the hands of these airline companies, and we have no record,"

and she wants to base the safety assessment on whether flights get cancelled or bags get lost?

[Pop n Fresh]

"Time to spare, go by air."

I've been stuck in Pioria because of weather. "Sorry sir, as I have told everyone else, your flight is cancelled, we can't control the weather."

The next Morning all flights were suddenly not leaving because O'hare was too full to accept the back log. They did not even know how many days until they would be able to get anyone out.

I could have had a fit in the terminal with other "customers" instead. I politely asked if I could get my flight changed so I could board the connecting flight in Chicago. Rented a car, loaded two other people in the same boat as me and a young pilot who was also stuck and went home.

[FurHat]

Am I to blame purely because the airfare was a relatively low price? Am I to blame because I expected a reasonable level of service in exchange for payment? Am I to blame because some people think flying is a privilege and not a right? Huh.

If I pay for insurance, wreck my car and call my broker, would I be upset if they didn't respond for 30 hrs and then tell me they couldn't get back to me because the phone was busy? Would it be my fault because I paid a reasonably competitive fee? Should I just have to wait and not worry about anything because car insurance isn't a right, merely a privilege?

If you are unhappy with any service or good provided by any company, and continue to patronize that company, then yes, you are to blame.

If you want service at an airline to improve, stop giving them your money. By continuing to fly them you are reinforcing their decisions to reduce levels of service, not have spare aircraft, contingency plans, etc. Stop choosing airlines based solely on the price. If people stop flying a company they will have to offer a better product if they want to survive. Getting the government to somehow enforce better service won't work. Why don't we regulate restaurants? I get bad food and service all the time, but if I leave feeling I didn't get my money's worth, I don't go back. I don't see how airlines should be treated differently than any other business.

Canadians have shown management at airlines that even if they are treated poorly, arrive late, don't get their baggage or are treated poorly, they will still be a repeat customer as long as the fare is marginally cheaper than the competition. Management has tailored their product to reflect this.

[godsrcrazy]

You people crack me up. You talk about passengers that pay your salary like they are the problem with this system. I don't know one airline that has dropped their price because passengers ask them to. Yes they drop their rates its called COMPETITION.

I am sure everyone of you that post on here never shop for a better deal on your home, car, groceries etc. You all must just walk in and pay what ever price is put in front of you to support the local guy. I wonder how many of you will be happy and understanding when the new car you bought to do a 1 week vacation breaks and all your plans go for down the tube because the discount car dealership says you will have to wait for 3 days before they look at it.

[doorhandle27]

What an idiotic response, fur hat. Tell me, if I paid for that first class seat on AC and was cancelled out of Florida for 4 days with little response do I deserve more than the coach passenger? Should I have just paid for a private machine to fly me home? Am I getting what I paid for with my first class ticket? It's the same airplane, same airline, same terrible service and response of the past month or so.

The argument is should the airlines be held responsible in some way for their lack of service these days, not should I spend more money on a ticket with the hopes of getting something better.

Do you eat at the finest restaurants in town, only purchase the Benz, shop at Holt's? Maybe you do, but for the 90% of us, we purchase what fits our budget which in turn doesn't mean we should accept terrible service.

Pull your head out of the sand, stop blaming the flying public for your shit airline.

[Shiny Side Up]

The argument is should the airlines be held responsible in some way for their lack of service these days, not should I spend more money on a ticket with the hopes of getting something better.

Actually there seems to be two different arguements at question here. Both related since one leads to the other.

The first is easy. When it comes to the question of a paying passenger getting to destination, yes they need to be held accountable if the passenger does not get there, and does not recieve at least a refund for the ticket.

The second part is do they do that to you with a smile, go the extra mile or not to help you out. Sometimes questionable, though personally I've never had any issues ever when I've been travelling. Everything has been handled satisfactorily.

Some points. First one should take into consideration the risk of the mode of travel. Its an airplane. Stuff will happen. It doesn't arrive like the mail, it can be stopped by snow, rain, ice or hail. The travelling public has to take this into consideration - which they don't. The question though is what might be considered reasonable delay and service in compensation for it. You'd probably get a different answer from anyone you talked to. I remember when a flight we were on was delayed an hour as they swapped planes due to a mechanical issue. Alone amongst the passengers that were waiting in the terminal, I was the only one who wasn't in some form of outrage. The airline staff were more than friendly, but that's more than one could say for the passengers. The demands ran anywhere from full refunds (and yet still retain aseat when the airplane went) to refunds plus unspecified compensation that ran along the lines of "start giving me stuff until I feel happy". There's a certain point where the airline is no longer responsible for you being unhappy about the inconvinience.

Add to this and there's also a substantial ammount of the public who would be unhappy with whatever service they got. They're like taking my Grandfather to a restaurant. It don't matter how good the food is, he complains about it.

The last point about putting your money where better service is at should be well heeded as well. If you get bad service somewhere, talk with your consumer dollars, and use someone else. I'm not sure why it never occurs to consumers that cheaper operations are cheaper partly because they are able to hire poorer workers. Why would they change their ways if they already got your money? Its not like there isn't options. Shop wiser.

[BTyyj]

Contrary to what some posters would have you think, the current product offered is exactly what consumers want; that is the airlines responding directly to market demand. It now seems this product isn't satisfactory to some consumers, and it is their right to say so.

Some want increased competition, but I wouldn't be the first to point out there isn't room for that in Canada.

Some want publicly disclosed complaints, however, this likely wouldn't provide any meaningful analytics between airlines.

Some want the government to step in and require a greater level of responsibility of the airlines. What the consumer MUST recognize when taking this step is that increased regulations on the airlines and impetus to improve their product WILL cost the airlines significantly more, and that cost WILL be passed on to the consumer in the form of higher ticket prices.

As for those of you slandering the pilot group, it would be worthwhile noting that despite inflation and exponentially increasing fuel costs, ticket prices have remained the same and/or decreased over the past few decades, mainly on the backs of the employees who have had to work longer, harder, and for less.