viewtopic.php?f=7&t=94358

Our Customer Service Specialist will receive a First Officer PCC or PPC (as applicable) on one of the company’s aircraft after 12 months in the position and will then continue to work as a Customer Service Specialist and First Officer as required. The Customer Service Specialist WILL aspire to a full time flying position as internal pilot movement allows. Of course, timing will be dependant mostly on pilot attrition at the time. Relocation to another base may be required once you move to full-time pilot. We require a current Multi IFR with 500 hours TT.

So, after flying ~300 hours after the CPL, why would one take a huge step backward to work on the ramp for 12 months + that this job entails??

Or am I reading this incorrectly?

Well, these days it is 200 hours for a CPL, 50 hours for a multi rating and Group 1 IFR. Then there is about 10 hours of driving your 'friends' around in a rented 172 before the flight school catches wind of what you are doing (maybe don't wear eppaulets next time); 10 hours volunteering for Air Cadets; 5 hours for your 'wide body' 182 endorsement; 100 hours dropping meat bombs; 10 hours for a tail dragger checkout; 100 hours volunteering as a tow pilot at the local soaring club; then finally, logging 'passenger time' from sympathetic members of the local COPA Flight as dual or PIC as necessary to get your 500TT.

Then you are finally ready for your first paying job in aviation..... cleaning toilets!

Lets say, hypothetically, you get an instructor rating, and the work dries up. Or, you do a jump season, and you get laid off... Why not jump into an established 703 operator, learn the inside of the business, and then have a guaranteed job with no bond/promissory note etc.? I guess you COULD go become a reality TV star at Buffalo, or slog away on the ramp in Thompson.
The CSR position entails dispatching and working intimately with the crews you'll eventually be flying with.

Is this a PERFECT solution? nope. But I have a helluva lot more respect for my colleagues going this route then walking into a an RJ/1900/Dash 8 job right out of college.

Three people right now are in a position, or have, gone captain having gone this route. All started 2 years ago, meaning, one year CSRing, one year on the line.

At the end of the day, don't like it, don't apply. Lets face it, the golden days of getting a flying job after flight school are all but gone. Don't like the game, don't play.

T

Nearly everyone (nearly) who takes a entry level job like this that has 500 hrs, is an instructor.

Chief pilots like the idea of hiring instructors because their PIC time means a quick upgrade, but its rarely happens like that.

In my current company and my old company, I've seen instructors come and go, and nearly all of them have bitched along the way, and left as soon as they could. I firmly believe the best way to start a pilot is on the ground for a few months, so they learn the company and environment, then upgrade right seat and left seat when they can. Many instructors take jobs like this because they think they HAVE to, not because they WANT to. Former instructors are typically the ones who come in with entitlement issues, former rampies/CSR's who make it to the cockpit seem much happier/proud.

Generally speaking, if some one is willing to work at your company in a ground position, learn the business, learn the people before operating the equipment, tend to be better employees. Just my 2 cents.

Sure, but if they need a whole year to figure out the ground
ops, they're probably too dense to ever fly an airplane.

Hell, I wouldn't let them drive a tug if they're that mentally
impaired.

This sentiment of "you need a year on the ground" reminds
me of what they told the tomcat before the operation - "it's
for your own good".

Nothing to do about being to dense to fly a airplane, a year on the ground will make you a worse pilot - but a better employee.

-Hire direct entry right seat instructor, you run a risk of hiring some douche that's going to bail as soon as shiny tin comes along.

-Hire for the ground, let them learn the company, settle in a bit, reward with an airplane - hopefully they stay a little longer and help build the business.

You know what would be really novel in this industry? Hiring a NON pilot for NON flying positions, and hiring Pilots for FLYING positions!
How BIZARRE would that be?
Hire people who DONT fly to work the ramp, deal with customers etc. you might get folks GOOD at their jobs, and not always drooling over the piss poor right seat position with cheapskate companies who can't pay EVERYBODY a livable wage?
Wouldn't that be REFRESHING? It's what NORMAL industries do.

Nothing to do about being to dense to fly a airplane, a year on the ground will make you a worse pilot - but a better employee.

Bull shit....keep drinking the kool aid. The scummy operators need you to believe.

You are a pilot. Employers that need to "assess" someone for a year need to figure out how to assess a pilot before hiring them

The truth is they keep a ready supply of right seat warmers eager and ready to move up, so when they lose someone they do not have to chase around. Just bump up a ground guy.

The only exception I have seen is to put a guy on the dock up north.....for a month! That position actually allows learning.
Over the years what I have seen is a new eager pilot starting out and then becoming impatient, disgruntled, and doing a really shitty job as a ground worker.

In any event, it is not my battle anymore, and I am sure an old guy's rant will not encourage self respect in any one newbie...after all...there is apparently 50 lined up behind them ready to whore themselves out.

As to the comment about instructors having a sense of entitlement. I have noticed that as well, but not in enough instances to generalize. The biggest problem I personally have seen with previous instructors is the belief they are pretty much qualified to fly anything......and teach on it.

In 'normal' industries its normal to start on the bottom and work up. Years ago I had a buddy who was a carpenter, spent his first month moving plywood around and cleaning up, he certainly wasn't framing houses with no supervision right away.

How many doctors start cutting up patience in surgery the next day after graduation? Theres usually a long period of learning in 'normal' jobs.

Any thing more than a year on the ground as a pilot is a waste of time, 3-6 months maybe a year, learn the operation, learn the people. I see no harm. If any pilot think they are to high and mighty to put on a vest and throw bags around, is living in a different universe.

I would personally love to see every AC/WJ pilot work the ramp for a months before flying, to gain a little perspective for the other people involved.

How many doctors start cutting up patience in surgery the next day after graduation?

Fair enough, but how many doctors do you see mopping the floor of the hospital?

jpilot77 wrote:

Fair enough, but how many doctors do you see mopping the floor of the hospital?

Probably none, but its all relative;

Load plane ---> then fly plane

Prep for/assist with surgery ----> then do surgery

FL767 wrote:Nothing to do about being to dense to fly a airplane, a year on the ground will make you a worse pilot - but a better employee.

-Hire direct entry right seat instructor, you run a risk of hiring some douche that's going to bail as soon as shiny tin comes along.

-Hire for the ground, let them learn the company, settle in a bit, reward with an airplane - hopefully they stay a little longer and help build the business.

A bigger crock of CRAP I have never seen. Pull your head out if your ass mate!

FL767 wrote:

jpilot77 wrote:

Fair enough, but how many doctors do you see mopping the floor of the hospital?

Probably none, but its all relative;

Load plane ---> then fly plane

Prep for/assist with surgery ----> then do surgery

NEWS FLASH: This is NOT surgery!
The RIGHT seat IS starting at the bottom! We are talking PILOTS here......pretty sure pilots fly airplanes. You could check the definition in Webster's......if you can actually read.

FL767 wrote:
I would personally love to see every AC/WJ pilot work the ramp for a months before flying, to gain a little perspective for the other people involved.

Who are you, and why would we give a rat's ass what you "would personally love to see..."???
You want to drive a lift truck? Have at it. The rest of us have "PILOT" printed on our licence.

A bigger crock of CRAP I have never seen.

Really? Plenty of posts in this very thread could challenge that.

[quote="Brown Bear] The RIGHT seat IS starting at the bottom! We are talking PILOTS here......pretty sure pilots fly airplanes. You could check the definition in Webster's......if you can actually read.
[/quote]


Well son, seems like we subscribe to two different schools of thought on piloting in Canada. I also suspect we work in different areas of this business.

I've been in the 703 king air medevac world for years where loading, fueling de-icing and yes performing elementary maintenance on airplanes is part of being a pilot.

If all you want to do is sign papers, push buttons and pull back on a control colum once in a while, then the 705 world is likely for you. And all the things 705 flying is about, like $38/credit hour.

Any way, this thread is about Thunder Air, where they fly King Air's under 703, although I don't know much about this operation I assume loading, fueling and de-icing is part of being a pilot there. Any current Pilots at Thunder Air care to comment? I'd like to hear more about this operation from an insider.

Well son, seems like we subscribe to two different schools of thought on piloting in Canada. I also suspect we work in different areas of this business.

Sounds like you might. Brown Bear is a 20000 hour plus pilot. I expect he could well have been flying before you were born.....son.

Stick to the belief that the starting rung for a pilot is not flying aircraft. No one is going to change your mind.

Hopefully some of the other young readers here will see the light and the employers that do this for what they are.

I'm afraid us old timers grew up in a time where a CPL meant you were qualified to fly a plane. We applied to be PILOTs and we were hired to be pilots. Some of us moved on to the big shiny, some of us (ok me) decided to remain seat of the pants pilots. It is difficult for us old guys to understand how the new generation of "pilots" feel they can't fly an airplane until they have been a ramp or dock rat for a year. Does loading cargo make you a better pilot? Oh, you learn how the company operates when you learn to shovel ramps, board passengers and load cargo. In the meantime, you forget your IFR knowledge, flying skills, etc. This BS about doctors not doing surgery from the get go is also BS. A doctor (professional) works under the guidance of a qualified doctor learning how to do the job they went to school for. Captains, in a 2 crew atmosphere, are teachers. A good captain mentors his(her) co-pilot, and is basically a trainer.

I can move to a new company tomorrow as a captain. I don't need to work the ramp for 6 months to learn how the company operates. It operates like this: Ensure you load the plane to the proper weight and balance, don't violate SOP's or TC, don't scare the passengers, be professional. That's the job. You don't learn that on the ramp!!

But what do I know. Go be cheap labour while the company hangs those 3 shiny stripes in front of you. End of Rant

Brown Bear wrote:You know what would be really novel in this industry? Hiring a NON pilot for NON flying positions, and hiring Pilots for FLYING positions!
How BIZARRE would that be?

+1

Recently a friend went for an interview. He has somewhere north of 1000hrs. He was told that they were willing to offer him a ground position that after a mandatory 6 months would lead to another ground position. After 3-6 months proving himself there it could lead anywhere, like managing the warehouse.

You can bet he jumped at the opportunity.

I found their F/O ad a little naïve...

Unless you're from T. Bay - and even then - why would anyone
with 500MPIC commit to two years there? Last I checked it was
2014.

I honestly hope that nobody with this sort of experience applies
for this position.

I currently work for Thunder.

Any ground position to pilot works in the office dispatching, quoting charter rates, dealing with our clients etc. We've found that the best dispatchers have been pilots. Maybe cause theyre desparate. Maybe because they have a working knowledge of the CARs. Maybe theyre whoring themselves out.
Theyre trained. Theyre paid an above average wage. When a pilot is needed theyre pulled out of dispatching for a flying spot.

Chances are that person will be trained on the King Air, however, the MU2 is a possibility too.

500 MPIC is the requirement for our ORNGE contract, and a lot of MNR contracts. You can get hired/upgraded to a Capt position without this requirement.

Everyone on this thread has made some invaluable insights on other threads, but sweet jesus, common people.

Salary and expectations are posted: check
Known company: check
Plenty of people who have gone through the Thunder system: check
Thunder bashing? haven't heard much: check

You want to make a career here, yep you can do it.
You want to stay for your two year promissory note, giv'er.
You want to leave whenever the hell you want, saw it yesterday.

What the hell else do you want?

On a sidenote, Im a firm believer if you work hard/professional etc. good things will come to you (as stated by all the above)
I think this is the EXACT reason why this company, and many others, have a system like this in place. They've been burned, and ipso facto, why they weed out the talent (or lack thereof)

T

Teeg wrote: You can get hired/upgraded to a Capt position without this requirement.

You can, or you can't?

common people

So royalty aren't allowed to apply?

Diadem wrote:

Teeg wrote: You can get hired/upgraded to a Capt position without this requirement.

You can, or you can't?

common people

So royalty aren't allowed to apply?

Obviously there is no literacy test/requirement in place? Guess you're expected to pick up your language skills on the ramp?