Sunwing and CYVO ARCAL

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Gilles Hudicourt
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Sunwing and CYVO ARCAL

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

CADORS Number:2010Q0288
2010-02-11
Narrative:
SWG679, a Boeing 737 operated by Sunwing Airlines, was IFR from Val-d'Or (CYVO) to Sept-Îles (CYZV). The aircraft took off from Val-d'Or without the runway lights being turned on by the crew with the Aircraft-Radio Control of Aerodrome Lighting (ARCAL) system, which was working fine.
CADORS Number:2013Q0900
2013-05-03
Narrative:
A Sunwing Airlines Boeing 737-800 (SWG9322), from Val-d’Or (CYVO) to Sept-Îles (CYZV), took off without runway lights, which were not turned on by the crew even though the ARCAL system was working properly.
CADORS Number:2014Q0384
2014-03-14
Narrative:
A Sunwing Airlines Boeing 737 800 (SWG9425), from Val-d’Or (CYVO) to Sept-Îles (CYZV), took off without using aircraft radio control of aerodrome lighting (ARCAL) to turn on the runway lights. Yet, it had turned them on upon arrival. No known impact on operations.
Attempting take off without runway lights has caused an incident in the past, and most interesting, it involved another airline that made use of TFW pilots who were flying Canadian Registered aircraft although they only had a foreign licence.

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repor ... 3o0034.pdf
The first officer was an employee of My Travel Airways Ltd., United Kingdom (UK) and was flying for Skyservice Airlines for the winter season as part of a crew sharing arrangement between Skyservice and My Travel. He held a valid UK, Civil Aviation Authority (CAA), ATPL. This licence had been appropriately attached to a Transport Canada, foreign licence validation certificate and was being properly exercised in accordance with the privileges of his UK licence.
The first officer was unfamiliar with operations at uncontrolled aerodromes, including ARCAL lighting procedures, which resulted in the captain attempting to assist the first officer with his PNF
The first officer was unfamiliar with procedures at uncontrolled aerodromes. He transmitted the initial aircraft manoeuvring on the apron on the appropriate ATF and then, in error, requested the IFR departure clearance on this frequency. He then contacted London FIC on the appropriate radio frequency to obtain the departure clearance. The first officer made it known to the captain that he was not familiar with uncontrolled aerodrome procedures and as a result the captain assisted the first officer in his PNF duties, thereby increasing his own workload. The captain made the subsequent appropriate radio calls while manoeuvring on the taxiways and prior to back-taxiing on the runway; however, these radio calls were transmitted on radio frequencies other than the ATF. This non-use of the ATF and the captain=s expectancy to receive a response on either the tower or ground frequency indicated that he was not fully aware of the environment in which he was operating. The flight crew did not monitor the published ATF, and, as a result, they did not hear any of the radio transmissions directed to them by Staff 28.
During the runway back-taxi and after conducting the before take-off check, the flight crew discussed the lack of runway lighting and the means of activating the ARCAL lighting system. Skyservice Airlines does not specifically address the operational use of ARCAL lighting systems in either its initial or recurrent ground school for flight crew members. It likewise does not address operations at night at uncontrolled aerodromes in either company SOPs or the company operations manual. There is no Transport Canada regulation requiring them to do so; however, instructions for using ARCAL lighting exist in the Canada Flight Supplement (CFS) as well as the Air Canada Route Manual Supplement, which is Skyservice=s primary source of airport supplementary information. Both of these documents are part of the on-board library and were available to the flight crew.
I was informed that the year after this incident, Transport Canada informed Skyservice that the next batch of of foreign pilots would need Transport Canada licences. Skyservice complied and provided a ground school to about 70 British pilots, who did their exams and all obtained Canadian ATPLs. This was not necessairily as a consequence of the above mentioned incident but because there was pressure from a lot of Canadian un-employed Canada 3000 pilots who resented the fact that Skyservice was using TFW with foreign licences when there were qualified and experienced Canadians to fill those posts that were given to Foreign Nationals. And CAR 705.106 and 725.106(6) did specify that one needed a Canadian licence to fly revenue flights under Part VII in Canada. So that winter, in 2004, someone at Transport Canada decided to apply the CARs to the letter...........

Then they went back to issuing FLVCs to TFW pilots again..........

Why, I have no idea..........the rules and regulations were still the same.
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Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Rogerdodger2
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Re: Sunwing and CYVO ARCAL

Post by Rogerdodger2 »

CADORS Since Jan 01 2006

Sunwing 382

Transat 533

Huh, I guess Transat is unsafe...

Sound stupid?

So is this thread topic.
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lelantos
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Re: Sunwing and CYVO ARCAL

Post by lelantos »

Rogerdodger2 wrote:CADORS Since Jan 01 2006

Sunwing 382

Transat 533

Huh, I guess Transat is unsafe...

Sound stupid?

So is this thread topic.
I agree. This is very stupid. But this is Gilles attempt to keep Sunwing on the radar. The more that people read or/and comment, the more this crap perpetuates. Don't respond to this garbage....remember this isnt about whats best for Canadians but rather whats best for Transat and his own agenda.
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BTyyj
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Re: Sunwing and CYVO ARCAL

Post by BTyyj »

Well said Rogerdodger2 and lelantos, I too think we should continue to allow foreign pilots, who evidently don't know Canadian airport procedures and regulations, to illegally work in Canada and take Canadian jobs.
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I'm glad I'm not judgmental like all you smug, superficial idiots
Dick
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Re: Sunwing and CYVO ARCAL

Post by Dick »

I can't find where in the CADOR it lists the nationality of the pilots, but somehow this has been turned into a foreign pilot issue.
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FICU
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Re: Sunwing and CYVO ARCAL

Post by FICU »

lelantos wrote:....remember this isnt about whats best for Canadians but rather whats best for Transat and his own agenda.
If I'm on a Sunwing jet or any carrier that takes off at night with no runway lights because the foreign crew can't figure out how to operate ARCAL then it is about what's best for me and all Canadians.
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: Sunwing and CYVO ARCAL

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

I would hazard a guess that there has never been a Canadian 737 crew that did not know how to operate an ARCAL.

I don't care how long ago this incident took place, the bottom line is a foreign crew member who by his actions demonstrated he was not competent to work for a Canadian airline flying a domestic pairing, was allowed to do so even though there were suitably qualified Canadian pilots available.

How can any Canadian professional pilot be OK with this ?
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ea306
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Re: Sunwing and CYVO ARCAL

Post by ea306 »

Big Pistons Forever wrote:I would hazard a guess that there has never been a Canadian 737 crew that did not know how to operate an ARCAL.

I don't care how long ago this incident took place, the bottom line is a foreign crew member who by his actions demonstrated he was not competent to work for a Canadian airline flying a domestic pairing, was allowed to do so even though there were suitably qualified Canadian pilots available.

How can any Canadian professional pilot be OK with this ?
Now easy guys...

One would like to think that this would not be the case.... HOWEVER... Sadly I can tell you that I have witnessed more than once over the years fellow crew members lacking competency in MF Procedures and the use of ARCAL. Canadians from Canada flying with Canadian ATPL. And not just at SWG.

Granted...not the norm. But I've seen it first hand.

I have no knowledge of whether these examples cited involved foreign crews or Canadian crews... But go ahead and saddle up a lynching party anyways....
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doorhandle27
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Re: Sunwing and CYVO ARCAL

Post by doorhandle27 »

GH, time to move on pal, find a hobby or something else. Your hard on for SWG's destruction is pathetic to say the least. Look in your own back yard once in a while, I haven't seen SWG glide any airplanes recently. What a joke this is.
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BTyyj
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Re: Sunwing and CYVO ARCAL

Post by BTyyj »

doorhandle, everyone has their own motives to pursue certain interests. Do you really think all doctors are in medicine simply to help people?

Bottom line, Gilles is addressing an issue that affects all Canadian pilots. Although his motivates may not be fully aligned with yours, he at least deserves some recognition for fighting the good fight, a fight that may very well better this industry for all pilots, not just Transat ones.
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I'm glad I'm not judgmental like all you smug, superficial idiots
honest joe
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Wonder if they didn't teach them about turbulence either?

Post by honest joe »

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/ ... -1.2575152


A plane loaded with Edmontonians bound for Puerto Vallarta was forced to make an emergency medical landing in Montana Sunday morning after a flight attendant was injured when the aircraft hit turbulence.

Sunwing's Flight 559 was carrying 181 passengers and 6 crew members when it hit a patch of “extreme turbulence” – defined as 90 seconds of sustained turbulence – mid-air over Montana.

HJ
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Dick
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Re: Sunwing and CYVO ARCAL

Post by Dick »

This too is obviously a foreign pilot issue. Humans without Canadian genes do not have the ocular capacity to see turbulence...it's science!
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Dick
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Re: Sunwing and CYVO ARCAL

Post by Dick »

I guess science is wrong, it can happen to Canadian pilots as well...

An Air Canada Airbus A320-200, registration C-FDCA performing flight AC-792 from Los Angeles,CA (USA) to Toronto,ON (Canada) with 149 people on board, was enroute at FL350 about 60nm east of Denver,CO (USA) at about 22:52Z when the aircraft encountered turbulence causing the aircraft to climb to FL358 before the crew was able to return the aircraft to the assigned flight level 350. The crew subsequently declared PAN reporting an injured flight attendant, but continued the flight to Toronto, where the aircraft landed safely about 2.5 hours later.
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Dick
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Re: Sunwing and CYVO ARCAL

Post by Dick »

It even happens to WestJet...

Turbulence during a WestJet flight to Winnipeg from Calgary caused injuries to four people, officials said Saturday.

A spokeswoman for the Winnipeg Airports Authority, Christine Alongi, said the plane landed safely on schedule about 2:30 p.m. CT.

Two of the injured were flight attendants, the other two passengers, Alongi said.

While medical attention was needed — medical personnel were called to meet the plane when it landed — Alongi could not describe the nature of the injuries.
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Dick
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Re: Sunwing and CYVO ARCAL

Post by Dick »

Turns out it can even happen to pilots flying for airlines in the USA...

United Airlines‘ (Chicago) flight UA 89 from Newark to Beijing, China returned to Newark Liberty International Airport yesterday according to CNN after encountering severe turbulence 45 minutes into the flight. The severe turbulence injured five flight attendants who were serving the passengers. The Boeing 777-200 with 189 passengers and 16 crew members landed safely at EWR.
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honest joe
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Re: Sunwing and CYVO ARCAL

Post by honest joe »

Hey Dick - I know it can happen to any pilot -it was meant as humour, that is all...
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ajet32
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Re: Sunwing and CYVO ARCAL

Post by ajet32 »

You know this isn't about Air Transat or Sunwing or anybody else it's about TFW The foreign worker taking Canadian pilots jobs. If we had full reciprocity and access to European flying positions then it would be all fine. It isn't and we don't. They are very protectionist and as of now you get a validation once, and once only. After that it's 14 exams and all the other assorted medicals etc to get an EASA licence.

If we have a need for pilots because we don't have enough and can't train enough like a number of Asian countries then fine. Until then it should be Canadians first and always before anyone else. That's the way it is in Europe and South america and a good many other countries. how anyone can justify the program is beyond my comprehension.
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honest joe
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Re: Sunwing and CYVO ARCAL

Post by honest joe »

I agree with you totally...there are lots of Canadian pilots looking for work
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whipline
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Re: Sunwing and CYVO ARCAL

Post by whipline »

Sorry ajet but this is definitely about Gilles and Sunwing. He was just lucky enough to find something the rest of Canadian pilots would jump on. To date he's argued we're not a Canadian company, looking like a complete fool doing it. Then he briefly said our accounting practices were illegal. Then his own company took him offline and paid him to sit at home to stir this shit up.

You'll see from my very first response on the subject I said I agree 100% on reciprocity I however think the messenger is full of crap.

I've been at Sunwing long enough to watch them say we're so small we're not a threat, followed by trying to price us out of business, followed by trying to buy us, followed by spreading blatantly false rumours we're going out of business, arguing we're not Canadian owned and now foreign pilots.

The flea doesn't own the dog.
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Dh8Classic
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Re: Sunwing and CYVO ARCAL

Post by Dh8Classic »

honest joe wrote:I agree with you totally...there are lots of Canadian pilots looking for work
Yeah but how many of them meet AT's strict hiring requirements. That is to be bilingual. The Sunwing model offers greater opportunities.

Never heard that Gilles was paid by AT to take time off to do his stuff. Can you prove this Whipline or is it just rumour?
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davecessna
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Re: Sunwing and CYVO ARCAL

Post by davecessna »

BTyyj wrote:Well said Rogerdodger2 and lelantos, I too think we should continue to allow foreign pilots, who evidently don't know Canadian airport procedures and regulations, to illegally work in Canada and take Canadian jobs.
I'd argue most Canadians don't know Canadian airport procedures and regulations, continue to suck the living daylights out of future generations with their baby boomer pensions.
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hawker driver
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Re: Sunwing and CYVO ARCAL

Post by hawker driver »

Jax center was really pissed at Sunwing yesterday afternoon just south of Hevvn intersection. He told them twice to climb to 340 since there was an aircraft restricted at 350. The Sunwing pilots blew through 340 and stopped at 345 when their TCAS went off. Ours showed them 500 feet below.
Both pilots who apparently didn't speak or understand English too well stated they were cleared to climb to 350 when they clearly read back 340 a few minutes before.

I suggest you guys file your reports since we just filed our ASAP and I am sure JAX Center is going to be taking this further up the chain.
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scopiton
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Re: Sunwing and CYVO ARCAL

Post by scopiton »

few months ago I met a foreign pilot working for Canjet and told me he had to take over at the end of one of his flights: while their 737 was 2 miles final at around 2000' while doing a visual approach at CYUL the Canadian captain, instead of initiating a go-around, insisted in doing the approach. while all the bells and whistles of the aircraft's protection mode were triggered, the foreign pilot took over and elected to go around...
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pelmet
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Re: Sunwing and CYVO ARCAL

Post by pelmet »

Seems kind of odd for guys normally flying in much busier Europe. Any explanation. I would have thought North America would be a cakewalk for them for most locations.
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Spaceshuttle
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Re: Sunwing and CYVO ARCAL

Post by Spaceshuttle »

Was this a 310 or 330 ?

http://www.cbc.ca/1.2588249
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