Which ATO? Pacific Flying Club vs Sea Land Air

[khan82]

Hi,

I have decided to pursue a career in aviation and trying to decide on one of the schools from the topic of this post. They are both located in the Boundry bay area, BC.

I did take a fam flight with PFC and the instructor was very friendly and confident which i really liked but they do have one disadvantage which is $ plus the instructors are recent graduates from PFC with instructor rating and not professional trainers...does that matter?

Since i am going to be funding my PPL/CPL through my day job, pricing is crucial but not everything...I want to get the right training.

SLA has newer planes and are cheaper than PFC but they don't have a long standing history as PFC does.

If any one has any advice then please let me know. Any info will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[AirFrame]

The major downside to any flight training out of Boundary Bay, in my mind, is that you'll pay a .3 to .4 hour surcharge on every training flight away from the airport, just in transit time to/from a practise area.

That needs to be weighed against the travel time and gas cost to drive out to Pitt Meadows or Langley to use as a starting point. If you already live really close to ZBB then the convenience may pay for the extra flying, but I suspect in many cases other airports are better choices.

[gaamin]

I have decided to pursue a career in aviation

What is your goal in 1 year, 5 years, 10 years?

I am going to be funding my PPL/CPL through my day job

Good. You'll be ahead of many who spend money first, then work to repay it. This should give you more freedom to chose and/or refuse unsafe work.
If possible, I recommend saving enough money to do all the training at once, while focusing on the theory and getting ready for written exams, then do the flight training in a short amount of time. You will get better skills and knowledge in less time and for less money this way.

I want to get the right training.

Why limit yourself to schools at ZBB?
Here in western BC I recommend :
- Glacier Air for initial training, taildragger and basic aerobatics
- Compass West for multi-IFR
- Vancity Seaplanes for professional float training

SLA's planes are for sale : http://www.controller.com/list/list.asp ... t&setype=1

PFC, as you mentioned, is a lot of the blind leading the blind, with mostly very junior instructors who are only on their way to the entry level airline job, and who are selected not on their teaching ability but on their ability to pay for the training towards an instructor rating.

Good luck,

JBL

[khan82]

The major downside to any flight training out of Boundary Bay, in my mind, is that you'll pay a .3 to .4 hour surcharge on every training flight away from the airport, just in transit time to/from a practise area.

That needs to be weighed against the travel time and gas cost to drive out to Pitt Meadows or Langley to use as a starting point. If you already live really close to ZBB then the convenience may pay for the extra flying, but I suspect in many cases other airports are better choices.

I live in Vancouver and I have been thinking about the time wasted in transit going to boundary bay....it would be the same time to go to Pitt Meadows....what are the good schools out there?

Thanks!

[khan82]

I have decided to pursue a career in aviation

What is your goal in 1 year, 5 years, 10 years?

I am going to be funding my PPL/CPL through my day job

Good. You'll be ahead of many who spend money first, then work to repay it. This should give you more freedom to chose and/or refuse unsafe work.
If possible, I recommend saving enough money to do all the training at once, while focusing on the theory and getting ready for written exams, then do the flight training in a short amount of time. You will get better skills and knowledge in less time and for less money this way.

I want to get the right training.

Why limit yourself to schools at ZBB?
Here in western BC I recommend :
- Glacier Air for initial training, taildragger and basic aerobatics
- Compass West for multi-IFR
- Vancity Seaplanes for professional float training

SLA's planes are for sale : http://www.controller.com/list/list.asp ... t&setype=1

PFC, as you mentioned, is a lot of the blind leading the blind, with mostly very junior instructors who are only on their way to the entry level airline job, and who are selected not on their teaching ability but on their ability to pay for the training towards an instructor rating.

Good luck,

JBL

Well my goal is to be flying for a commercial airliner with in 5 years. I have money to complete my PPL training with in 3-5 months so hopefully that's get done quick....i was planning on taking ground school first as well and then the flight training.

Glacier Air will be to far to commute as my present job is in Vancouver...

Maybe SLA is getting new planes? haha...i will have to call and check.

so I am assuming pacific flying club is the better choice near 30 minute commute around Vancouver?

[gaamin]

Well my goal is to be flying for a commercial airliner with in 5 years

Well that's a start. Define your idea of "commercial airliner".
What is your plan? What are the experience and skills of the people currently hired for that position? How did they obtain that experience? How long did it take them? How much did they get paid?

I have money to complete my PPL training with in 3-5 months

Do you mean you will have the money in 3 to 5 months, or you already have the money and expect to complete your PPL training in 3 to 5 months? When do you plan to have enough money to finance your CPL?

I was planning on taking ground school first as well and then the flight training.

Start ground school now. You can rarely know and understand too much before getting in the aircraft. If in a classroom setting, you'll interact with other people interested in aviation and get a picture of how long it is taking them. If online, you can use http://pilottraining.ca/

Glacier Air will be to far to commute as my present job is in Vancouver...[...]so I am assuming pacific flying club is the better choice near 30 minute commute around Vancouver?

Another example of customer choosing convenience over quality and experience... no wonder it is hard to find quality instruction and skilled pilots.

JBL

[khan82]

From my research it looks like that after having CPL flying for a regional airline can be achieved with in 2-3 years.

I have the funds for ppl in hand and I expect it to take me 3-4 months to complete training. As for commercial I plan to spend 2k a month.

I can't commute for an hour to only fly 1 hour. There must be good options in lower mainland too?

[gaamin]

There is no flight training downtown. The nearest airports are 45 to 90 mins from downtown depending on traffic.

You can spend minimal extra time on the road and get consistent quality instruction out of a challenging airport in uncontrolled airspace, with experienced people, or spend it at a premium in the air when commuting to practice areas with a junior instructor. Your choice. It's also your choice to commute for only one flight, or to think it is not valuable/efficient. Your choice to ask for advice about only 2 schools, one of which is selling 4 of its 7 aircrafts.

If you want, try schools at CYNJ, CYPK, CYSE, even CYCW if you chose to. Chose your instructor based on his/her flying and teaching skill and efficiency, rather than your school based on apparent convenience. Organize your time so that you get the best value out of each flight.

Or go get a glider pilot licence out of CYHE this year, then an ultralight pilot licence out of King George airpark, and use these very valuable hours (lots learned for little cost) as credit towards your PPL requirement. By then you will have saved enough for your IFR rating and multi rating if you chose to and will be able to do them in a short timeframe, making them more cost-effective. This is likely the course of action that would also make a very competent pilot out of you.

Good luck,

JBL

[khan82]

which school would you pick at the langley airport?

[kmf.kenif]

I did take a fam flight with PFC and the instructor was very friendly and confident which i really liked but they do have one disadvantage which is $ plus the instructors are recent graduates from PFC with instructor rating and not professional trainers...does that matter?

I don't want to get off on a tangent with this topic, but everyone starts somewhere. Who is to say a recent PFC grad with a fresh Class 4 won't work hard to provide you the best instruction they possibly can?

Just a thought.

KF

[khan82]

nothing wrong with that...i want everyone's point of view

[gaamin]

Who is to say a recent PFC grad with a fresh Class 4 won't work hard to provide you the best instruction they possibly can?

Nobody says that. Hard-working is the least one should expect.

Just saying the fresh PFC class 4's best possible instruction will most likely not be as effective as the instruction provided by a better, more experienced instructor out of a better flight training location.

JBL

[kmf.kenif]

Nobody says that. Hard-working is the least one should expect.

Just saying the fresh PFC class 4's best possible instruction will most likely not be as effective as the instruction provided by a better, more experienced instructor out of a better flight training location.

Fair enough. But I wouldn't discredit a Class 4's ability to teach, and it can't be half bad when they have more time and energy to put more attention on you as a student.

Good luck with your decision.
KF

[MikeGolfEcho]

I enjoyed doing my night rating with Sealand Air. Looks like they might not be doing so well though(?)....

EDIT: gaamin already posted ad of SLAs planes for sale

I flew all those planes, great fun to fly and nicely equipped. I found the instructors to be enthusiastic in general but I only actually flew with one (Michael Peare) who was bloody brilliant. He is no longer there however.

I also would suggest Glacier Air in Squamish for ab initio training.

MGE.

[Colonel Sanders]

I suspect that if you have an experienced flight
instructor who is bad, he was probably worse
when he was inexperienced.

Most of us get better at stuff, when we do it
more. For flying (and teaching) that is certainly
the case.

I started on my class 4 instructor rating in 1991
and I know that when I upgraded to a class 3, I
was a better instructor than when I first got my
class 4.

And I think I was a better instructor after I had
more experience, and became a class 2.

And I know I'm a better instructor now, after more
than 10 years as a class 1 instructor, than when I
first upgraded to a class 2, 15 years ago.

The bad news is that I still can't teach worth sh1t

[khan82]

so far this is my game plan...

PPL from Glacier Air
CPL from PFC
Ground School from PFC
Sea Plane at Island Coastal

[AirFrame]

which school would you pick at the langley airport?

First, you asked which ones I would recommend at Pitt... Unfortunately, I don't know... I'm based at Langley so I don't even know what the school names are at Pitt. But I still recommend you go out there and talk to some of the instructors in the schools. From Vancouver, Pitt won't be any harder to get to than Boundary, and you *will* save time in the air.

For Langley, I have first-hand great experience with Skyquest, and others I know have said great things about Langley Flying School. I don't know anything about LFS personally.

Something an instructor at Langley pointed out to me, that I hadn't considered... The runways at Boundary are 5000' long and 100' wide. The main runway at Langley is 2100' long and 75' wide. With the much smaller margin for error, it will demand more of you as you learn to fly... He said that they tell students up front that it might take a little longer to get to solo at Langley, but that you will be a better pilot when you do, because the instructors have to demand more precision.

[5400AirportRdSouth]

Just my two cents Khan ( sorry, I don't know how to use the quote function )

" From my research it looks like that after having CPL flying for a regional airline can be achieved with in 2-3 years. "

While I'd agree that this "can" be achieved, there's a lot more to this. Do you plan on getting an instructors rating? Do you plan on moving to Fort Saint Lake? While these are popular and well worn paths, they can still easily take more than 2-3 years to get to a point where a regional airline would look at you. Maybe decide what path feels best to you and start preparing for it now. If you're going the instructor route, perhaps doing all your PPL/CPL training at a school where the instructor rating might lead to an instructor job, and you can spend this time endearing yourself to the CFI through your hard work, diligence and a good attitude. If you're going to go the frozen wasteland-northern-store route, perhaps look at a school where the CFI/staff have connections/reputations with smaller air services and possibly add a float rating / tailwheel training.

" I can't commute for an hour to only fly 1 hour. There must be good options in lower mainland too? "

Just remember, a 1 Hour flight can easily be a half-day or better in time commitment. A full day, start at 8-9 AM and finishing at 5, usually meant a 1 hour flight in the morning and another 1 hour flight in the afternoon. Trust me, that's a full day. To commute for an hour to Squamish is really not as bad as it seems. If I was in the lower mainland and doing it again, I'd definitely look at Squamish. I heartily recommend Glacier Air as well. The value for the money when it comes to quality of instruction is a VERY important factor and can be very difficult for a new student to evaluate. This is where this forum actually shines, referrals and recommendations from those who went before you are gold. FL at Glacier is a very well known and widely respected. Even if he's not your instructor there, he is responsible for hiring and training those that would be, his seal of approval would be good enough for me.

I have nothing against PFC, in fact I think one of their advantages is that with the size of the school and the intended career trajectories of a lot of their students would make for good future networking connections.

As far as SLA, I looked at them for a multi-IFR rating and the fact that their aircraft are new and equipped with modern avionics, I determined to be a considerable down-side. ( if you're planning on the Ft-St-Lake route to a commercial career, very few aircraft will have FADEC or auto-feather on a 30 year old piston twin. )

I'd also recommend Pacific Rim at YPK as well, don't discount the .2 per flight you're going to spend transiting to the practice areas from ZBB, in real dollars that's roughly 30-50 dollars per flight hour, times the 200 hours you need, is.....math.

Now, I'm not trying to poke holes in your research, but trying to help you based on some of my own experiences and give you some tips, they may or may not be relevant to you based on your situation, but they're free!

[SLA]

Dear Khan82

Thank you for considering Sea Land Air in your decision to pursue flight training and a career in aviation. To address the concerns that you and others may have on this posting. Sea Land Air is currently selling its fleet of Diamond A1 aircraft as we transition and upgrade to a Diamond C1 fleet. At the moment we have no specific timeline to achieve this but it we expect to be operating with a full fleet of C1 aircraft within the very near future.

If you would like to discuss any of your future training with us, please do not hesitate to contact us where we would be happy to answer any questions you may have.

Email: inquiry@sealandair.ca
Phone: +1 (604) 940-6811

Sincerely
Sea Land Air Management

[khan82]

I really appreciate all the different point of views I have received. I m gonna do a FAM flight at pacific rim and glacier air and then make my decision.

I do plan on getting instructor and float plane rating as well..

[Tail-Chaser]

I was fairly pleased with my instruction from Fort Langley Air for my float rating. You'll pay a bit more for the C180 though.

[Colonel Sanders]

A 180/185/206 is a pretty expensive floatplane.

If I were doing float training, I'd do it on something
tube and fabric with a lot of wing and no electrical
or vacuum systems. Really light. Maybe VG's.

No battery, no alternator, no voltage regulator, no
starter, no wiring, no radios, no vacuum pump, no
gyros. That's a LOT of weight and money saved.

Also, no heavy, expensive constant speed prop and
governor. And a lot less fuel burn with a smaller,
cheaper 4 cylinder engine which doesn't have to
make as much power, to get the same performance
with the much lighter weight.

All you really need is two headsets and a portable
ICS with a 9V battery as far as cockpit equipment
goes. Maybe a tach and an oil pressure gauge and
a compass to be legal. Oh yeah, an airspeed and
an altimeter. I'd skip the VSI.

If you wanted 50 or 100 hrs of float time, that's
what I would do.

A friend of mine built an open-faced shed at his
cottage that faces the water to haul his floatplane
out of the water and sun when he's not using it.
Very slick.

[Shiny Side Up]

A 180/185/206 is a pretty expensive floatplane.

I don't know, when I did my float rating, it was only $80/hr dual.