PPL info needed! - First timer...

[zain1291]

Hi All,

This is my very first post here and I am glad be here with flight enthusiasts, pilots, ATC's etc. I am 22 and have been flying on VATSIM since 16. Now that I am finally settled, I can get approved for a LOC! I am looking forward to getting started with my PPL this year. I did a little research on the schools in Toronto and found these:

1. Buttonville airport - Toronto Airways
2. Billy Bishop Airport
3. Brampton Flight Center

One of the most common question I see anywhere is the budget... to which the answer I have been seeing is 8 to 12k. I am ready to go up to 10k but I was surprised when I called up Buttonville airport and they mentioned the cost will be around double to what they have specified online. Thus, around 20k. Is that how much I shall be spending at any school? (For Cessna 152).

Secondly, I live in Toronto, I drive and work downtown 9 to 5 (weekdays), are there any better options for flying school I have (don't mind an hour commute over weekends)?

Lastly, with all you folks having so much knowledge on flight training... can someone please guide me as to what all I should consider before I go ahead and register at some school. Just so that I don't end up wasting any of my money.

I hope I was clear to my points. I apologize if I missed any info needed.

Looking forward for all your responses!

Zain

[xysn]

If you can, take a 5 months sabbatical or something from work and just focus on flying almost every day. That's the fastest and cheapest way to get it done. You'll probably still go over 10k but hopefully not by much, depending on your diligence and ability.

If you drag it out trying to learn over evenings and weekends, it will take longer and cost more. (i.e.: Closer to 20k than 12k)

I don't know anything about those schools though, sorry.

You mentioned a lot of time on VATSIM - remember when flying the real thing to look outside. Only glance at the gauges occasionally.

Keep in mind you don't really "register" at a school. The flying time is portable so you can switch schools and instructors.

There's plenty of threads around ... remember you are hiring an instructor to teach you. See if you get along. (This is not the same as being friends) Ask for references. Talk to other students.

[Colonel Sanders]

Don't finance your flight training with debt.

First, go out and earn some money, and
spend that on flight training.

Debt is like crack. It might feel good at
first, but long-term, is it not a good choice.

[white_knuckle_flyer]

If you ask me, the person at Buttonville did you the biggest favour by giving you a more realistic estimate of what it would cost to learn to fly.

I can't fathom how someone could, in good conscience, suggest that you could get your PPL for $8K in the GTA. The 20K quoted by Buttonville is closer to the mark, in my opinion. However, to play it safe, you could say somewhere in the middle, or 15K, is more like it.

For example, Brampton quotes just over 10K for a PPL. Sounds pretty good, right ? Well, that is just for the TC minimum of 45 hours. Is that going to happen ? No, and for several reasons. The most obvious is that they will likely not sign off on you after 45 hours. Another is that when you do hood time, x-country, and other stuff, you aren't going to just hop out o the plane once the 5 hours ( or whatever ) is reached.

Of course there's more. The price quoted is for a 152. If you are a young guy ( and you are ) then perhaps you can basically sit on the floor of an a/c for hours at a time. But if you get the itch for some 172 time, or if the 152 is unserviceable or always booked, hello extra $$.

Then there is the frequently overlooked fact that you are not just paying for the plane while it was in the air. Wouldn't that be great if you did ? If you fly 2 hours a day, 5 days a week, then you can add another hour just for run-up and taxi time.

And then there is insurance ( once you start soloing that is ). Not a big deal, but around $8 hour, if I recall.

Oh yes, then there is fuel surcharge. Another $8 or so, per hour.

And don't expect you are going to be able to fly 5 days a week, or even 3 days a week. Weather will often see to that, especially once you are soloing. The planets will have to align themselves nicely for all of your solo efforts ~ cloud, wind, fronts. I mention this because it is not likely that you will be able to blow through your training in a linear, uninterrupted fashion. If our summer looks like our winter, there are going to be periods where you simply can't get into the air and then some form of remedial training will creep into your training. $$$

Then of course, the grand daddy of all, is the 13% slice for Harper and Wynne.

There will be other things as well...maps, supplements, etc., but that's the same no matter where you go.

Oh yes, I would say 15K easily.

But it is one of the best things I ever did, even though I am now too broke to actually make use of it.

[photofly]

budget $15k, and be prepared to work hard between flights on reviewing and learning.

[JungianJugular]

As mentioned don't get into debt for flight training. The budgets given here are a realistic estimate
I did it part time and came out 14k after everything. Yep, flying is expensive but once you have your first dose it becomes an addiction. I *ucking love it, I'm sure you will too

My advice to you:

Over estimate what guys say on here by 5k. Save that money and then pursue the training.
Do not take a loan. Got cash left over? Great. It won't be debt that's left over.
Find an instructor you like. This is the most important thing. Instructors
are there to build time, most of them anyways. Meet the instructors before you start. Talk to their former students and ask them how their training went. The instructors will want to be your best friend, naturally they are seeking hours and you provide them the means to moving on in their careers. I can't stress how important it is to have a solid working relationship with your instructor. You want someone who actually wants to teach. It's your money, remember that.

One mistake I made was falling behind with the ground school portion. Get used to studying. Be on top of that shit, son. You have to love it. I did my flight test before the written. Big mistake. Have a smart phone? Install Flash Card Creator app. Study while on the toilet.

[trey kule]

Debt is like crack. It might feel good at
first, but long-term, is it not a good choice.

Never tried it so I will defer to your experience and knowledge

If someone could help.

Fuel surcharge? Solo insurance surcharge? Really? Are FTUs now playing the add on game?

For the life of me I dont understand a fuel surcharge. If you know what it is, why would it just not be in the price?

As I know nothing about costs, exactly what are they in terms of solo and dual per hour. Ground school costs, supplies , exam fees, etc.

15000 for 50 hours works out to about $300 per hour, all in.,

[white_knuckle_flyer]

Fuel surcharge? ... Really? Are FTUs now playing the add on game?

Sure, why should just the big airlines have all the fun ?

Just wait for the surcharge on the surcharge.

Of course, you are free to waive the insurance fee, which is why they itemize it. But that's a risk I ain't takin'.

[trey kule]

Tks.

Does this insurance fee cover them or you? There is a difference.

Surcharge surcharge eh? Sounds like the name of a terrorist.

[white_knuckle_flyer]

Insurance charge is to protect you whenever you are not with an instructor. The instructor is your insurance when flying dual.

[trey kule]

So, based on 15 hrs solo for a PPL, that is a $120. "Add on"

Reminds of a certain FTU in BC that used to charge students a "registration fee". Or maybe still do.

This who add on business bothers me, but I guess we have become used to never knowing what things actually cost...$15k. For a PPL. Shocks me a bit.

[Colonel Sanders]

Shocks me a bit

So does 80 hours to get a PPL, but
no one seems to mind.

[Rookie50]

Study study study, do half your ground school before starting flying, understand the theory and the flying portion will come easier. I probably wasted 5 hrs because I had to repeat a couple of items, that I could have prepared better on the ground. That's $800 -- oh well.

Save your money, book off the time and fly 3 times a week, at least, goes faster. Brampton will give you good uncontrolled experience in a busy airport, closer to practice area too I think.

[imac0960]

15K or 20K for a PPl seems extremely excessive. I'm not familiar with Toronto pricing but I would think that at 20K that is taking about 100hrs to get a PPL in which case you should find another instructor. I agree that you shouldn't go into debt to get your licences. Save up as much as you can and then fly as much as you can. The Air Cadets get their PPL in 7weeks. Best way to save money is to come well prepared and well rested. If you don't know something get it explained on the ground, it's much cheaper that way

Remember, you're paying for the training; if you don't like it, vote with your wallet. I would check out Spectrum Airways in Burlington, I used to hear them all the time on the radio. Driving out of Toronto may be a good way to save money.

My $0.02

[photofly]

$15k without the HST is $13,270. Take off $1000 for ground school, books, headset, exams and divide by 55 hours, is $223 per hour.

Budget $15k.

[dirtdr]

It was 18k all in for me about a year and a half ago.
This was in a 172 the whole way through. Signed off in about 72hrs

I don't know the exact rates... But every flight was 1.4 or so in the logbook... And never under $400.
I went for a flight daily whenever weather would co operate and had my PPL in 3 months. Some weekends I would fly twice a day, but not very often.

If you only have $10k to get your licence, you will not make it all the way...

Edit: my training was in Northern Alberta... Not GTA.

[andy.air]

Hah, I used to vatsim quite a bit, though that was roughly 7 yrs ago! In any case, having gone through it all, here are my two cents:

-Be prepared to spend. 15k-25k. The latter is very deep in the high end. What I would do is figure out approx hour many hours on average for a school to finish a student off. Usually the 60-75 hour block is good enough both in terms of being modest economically, and enough hours to keep you alive.

-Be wary of that 9-5 schedule you have. Regardless of how much flight sim you have done, prepare to be overwhelmed with information. Having taught a little bit myself, I have found that the weekend warriors tend to struggle a bit. Weather creeps up over a weekend, and you might end up not flying for two weeks. Then you forget things or lose the feel of the plane, and you will end up spending more $$$.
It is doable, but it's not the easy when you have at most 1-2 days a week.

-Do your Groundschool online at pilottraining.ca. It's cheaper and I found it more informative than some of the offerings at various flight schools

-Do your damnedest to prepare for every flight before you even go up. Visualize how your flight will go, and how to respond appropriately as a pic, and that will save you money. It's a lesson I still need to keep reminding myself, even though I don't pay to fly much anymore.

[trey kule]

Ok. I am starting to see where CS is coming from.

Maybe I am way out of touch, but I thought a PPL was about 45hrs. Why are you all talking about. 75 hour range as if that is normal...an extra 30 hours is a lot of beer money.

If I was doing a ppl and it looked like it was going over 50 hours I would be questioning my ability to become a pilot, or my instructor's ability to facilitate it. 75 hours is an extra 50%

Now I understand there will be those who take the learning process casually and will take more. But you guys make it sound like its normal...if it is then time for TC to look at how they are certifying flight instructors, and the management abilities of the CFIs...btw..I have always thought that the CZfIs should be held responsible for their instructors' training records. And hours to a license excluding the air cadets should be tracked..the air cadets skew the numbers way down.. No 70 hour PPLs there

One of the things I have noticed over the years is that many instructors compartmentalize lessons.
They are simply not efficient, and waste so much time. As well as the funnsy "scenarios". Time wasters.

[andy.air]

I think if you are doing a ppl at some remote strip without atc, and quiet enough where you can begin upper air exercises after t/o, and diligent enough to retain everything, 45 hours may be attainable, but it is still a bit of a squeeze. I don't know too many pilots these days who finished at min hours though, but that might just be due to locale. And then, there are plenty of ppl's who have next to no clue what to do when they enter class c.

[Colonel Sanders]

there are plenty of ppl's who have next to no clue what to do when they enter class c

Sigh.

I have observed that there are plenty of PPL's
that have no clue:

- when they first encounter a direct 15G25
crosswind (eg at my airport, right now)

- when they first get into a multi-engine aircraft
with c/s prop, retractable gear and janitrol heater

- when they first enter cloud

- when they first get upside down

- when they first try to fly floats

- when they first try to fly a jet

According to your logic, all PPL's, in addition to
training out of a large, busy airport with plenty
of time spent taxiing and flying to and from a
remote practice area, should learn to fly with a
15G25 knot crosswind, in a multi-engine aircraft,
in cloud, doing aerobatics, on floats, in a jet.

See, according to your logic, if a PPL doesn't
master every facet of aviation before their
licence is issued, they never will, because all
learning stops at 50TT when the PPL is issued.

Please. See learning factor of Relationship.

Fact #1: a large, busy airport is a very unnecessarily
expensive place for ab initio flight training. Like
buying your groceries at Mac's Milk instead of
Costco.

Fact #2: there are pilots out there that didn't
learn to fly at a large, busy airport, that have
no difficulty flying at a large, busy airport. Really.

Fact #3: If you have the luxury of only selecting
students whom are young, show great aptitude,
and can fly full-time at an airport uncrippled by
ATC, they can get their PPL's in 50TT. It's called
the "Air Cadets". Some of them go on to fly
Hornets, Hercs and C-17's. Sometimes even at
large, busy airports. Sometimes even with people
on the ground shooting at them, which I consider
a particularly unpleasant form of air traffic control.

[Pop n Fresh]

I would not hesitate to buy a good headset. I bought a DC 13.4 and added gel pads. Guys said, "Those are too expensive for a student." That was 1992 and I still use them. Granted I only have around 300 hours but they are still fully functional.

But you guys make it sound like its normal...if it is then time for TC to look at how they are certifying flight instructors, and the management abilities of the CFIs....

Sorry, TC should have done that before it became normal, prior to 1990. Around 1988 I was told by several FTUs, "Nobody gets a license in 45 hours. If a school gives you a quote based on that they probably can't be trusted." Granted all but one of them was in Class C airspace either YYC or YBW.

I wonder how different things would have been if I chose the FTU at the uncontrolled airport instead?

[white_knuckle_flyer]

This type of thread always really brings out the different experiences and philosophies that people have here.

Some feel that 45-50 hours should be adequate to get your PPL and that FTUs are often gouging students by extending training into 60, 70, 80 hours. I can agree that 50 hours is sufficient, but it depends upon so many factors.

If you are young, unencumbered by family, not working long, horrible hours, undertaking a long commute, etc., then sure, 50 hours may be attainable.

If you are getting your PPL simply as a means to get your CPL and beyond, then sure, cut the hours to the bone and get that PPL at 45 hours. Mimic your instructor (assuming he/she is a good instructor), don't get bogged down in trying to understand too much theory behind what you are doing, and fly twice a day on a good day, then yes, you may get your PPL in 45 hours.

Now personally, if I went from a position of not knowing the first thing about airplanes to being able to hop in a plane and fly to Pelee Island in a mere 45 hours of training, I would feel very uneasy. That is because for me, the PPL was the end of the line and although the PPL is a "license to learn" I knew I would never have the means with which to do that kind of focused training again. I needed to fully understand every thing, and when I didn't, I would spend time and money until I did. I was also in my mid-40s and very much encumbered, so my training was different than most.

I have heard instructors say that despite the Air Cadets getting their licenses in 7 weeks, they are horrible pilots. I would totally expect as much, but as they continue their training this will change. But what if there was a 45 year-old air cadet who got his/her license in 7 weeks and now wanted to start flying his family and friends all over Ontario. That would likely change your perspective.

It always makes for a good discussion anyway.

[Colonel Sanders]

WKP: You make a big deal out of cross
countries. My experience is that if the
wx is good, and you have good nav eqpt,
and lots of fuel, it's really not very hard.

These days, with incredibly accurate GPS's
in everyone's phone (or dirt cheap as a
separate device) navigation is frankly a
joke. It didn't used to be that way, decades
ago, when I flew around Canada with only
a VNC and a compass.

How many decades did you spend, flying
around Canada, with no nav radios and
only a VNC?

[Bede]

I have had pretty much all my students finish in about 55 hrs or less. I had a couple that took longer, but I think the longest would have been about 70 hrs. Too many instructors waste too much time flying. I usually do training flight of about 1.5 hrs. There is never a free moment- on the way to the practice area I go over emergencies, pilotage, etc.

To the OP,
A couple things to consider: buy your own airplane (or even better, together with a friend) and get a free lance instructor. At least you'll have an asset at the end of your training so you can actually pay of the LOC if you want. The other option is to find a school that is doing an air cadet program. Ask them if you can be put on the same syllabus and schedule as the cadets. They're done in 45 hrs.

[andy.air]

there are plenty of ppl's who have next to no clue what to do when they enter class c

See, according to your logic, if a PPL doesn't
master every facet of aviation before their
licence is issued, they never will, because all
learning stops at 50TT when the PPL is issued.

No, that wasn't the point. The point was to address readiness and the scenarios that facilitate a student to be ready.

I can see that in your mind, there is little reason why a ppl cannot be done in 50 hours. That's fine. In fact, I'd side with you. However, to be a little more realistic here, you will not see this everywhere you go. As has been mentioned previously, being done at TC minimums will have to depend on a number factors (I.e., weather, schedule, taxi time, the student, how busy the circuit is, and are they actually ready to be cut loose). You can't expect every student to be like a cadet, be on the same schedule, and training in the same environment. A lot of the factors mentioned need to line up for this to happen, and not all are controllable by the FTU. Can a student be ready by 50 hours? Perhaps. Will they be safe pilots? Maybe, but you better not be cutting them loose if they aren't. Yes, we all know that the PPL is a license to learn, but it's also a license signifying they have met an acceptable standard, where hopefully the candidate didn't just scrape by and end up killing themselves down the road.

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for low hours and economical training. Is it doable? Sure. Some FTUs are indeed inefficient. Some FTUs may even be gouging. But 60-70 hours isn't unrealisitic, and you will see this a lot across the country. Results may vary depending on content learned and the situation.