http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 24#p874224



That is all....

That's what I thought when I read it.

Funny, it's a "pilot in waiting" position, yet they are looking for people with previous flight attendant experience. Nothing about any previous flying experience. Sounds like they are looking for a good, well qualified flight attendant/load master and that's it. Shouldn't they be looking for the right person for THAT job, and pilot hiring be completely separate?

OH WAIT! That would in a normal world, not bizzarro low time pilot land....

Once upon the time one dumb pilot said i will hand bomb stuff into the plane for a couple of years without looking into the cockpit to pay the dues..... Really fn sad.

And another equally dumb pilot said "Here, hold onto my $10,000, if I quit before 2 years, you can keep it...."
Illya

Hey, it might have been the SAME dumb pilot.....?

If I had $10k to give someone, the last person I am giving it to in an air operator.
Flight training is expensive and maybe people wouldn't leave companies right after getting experience if they weren't crappy places to work. The problem isn't pilots; it's the work place.

imac0960 wrote:If I had $10k to give someone, the last person I am giving it to in an air operator.
Flight training is expensive and maybe people wouldn't leave companies right after getting experience if they weren't crappy places to work. The problem isn't pilots; it's the work place.

Let us know how that works out for you when you're asked to sign a bond for YOUR first job.
Illya

Illya Kuryakin wrote:

imac0960 wrote:If I had $10k to give someone, the last person I am giving it to in an air operator.
Flight training is expensive and maybe people wouldn't leave companies right after getting experience if they weren't crappy places to work. The problem isn't pilots; it's the work place.

Let us know how that works out for you when you're asked to sign a bond for YOUR first job.
Illya

Worked fine for me. I accidentally signed a bond once, and it was the shittiest place I have ever worked, and the only place I've ever quit before my commitment was up.

Oh good, now this thread is about TWO controversial topics on which everyone feels the need to regurgitate their stupid opinions that we've all heard before.

Ramping and bonding pretty much go hand in hand. It's not like a sh!tty operator is going to have one without the other when they are dealing with dumb pilots.....

You are right this is quite stupid, but needs to be repeated over and over untill young pilots actually fly and earn money after shelling out big $$ for CPL. There is so much the internet propaganda can do.

FenderManDan wrote:You are right this is quite stupid, but needs to be repeated over and over untill young pilots actually fly and earn money after shelling out big $$ for CPL. There is so much the internet propaganda can do.

+1

Illya Kuryakin wrote:

imac0960 wrote:If I had $10k to give someone, the last person I am giving it to in an air operator.
Flight training is expensive and maybe people wouldn't leave companies right after getting experience if they weren't crappy places to work. The problem isn't pilots; it's the work place.

Let us know how that works out for you when you're asked to sign a bond for YOUR first job.
Illya

Never paid a bond or was asked to sign a bond. BTW signing a bond and paying upfront are two very different items.

Actually the problem is both pilots and operators. And I am not sure in the balance, that it is more the pilots.

Wtf is a pilot in waiting? Waiting for what? To be a pilot?
This whole work on the ground business, for some reason is ingrained in all the new pilots brains.

Oh right,,,there is 50 guys lined up behind you who will take the job.....let them.

That's right kids. The number of flying positions available for freshly licensed no-timers is so staggeringly low that the odds of you walking into one are overwhelmingly against you. As trey pointed out, probably 50:1 or worse. However, you are a licensed commercial pilot with zero experience to offer and thus, are entitled to a certain lifestyle. As a child of the new age you should not have to experience the unpleasantness of having to work towards a goal like a savage. So when a company tells you they have no flying positions available, but will offer you employment in another capacity until one arises, do the right thing and turn up your nose. And when you don your blue smock and associate name tag, and walk in to your shift at Wal Mart, you do so with your head held high, smug and secure in the knowledge that by refusing to work a job that was guaranteed to have directly led to a flying job, you've made a great and noble life decision.

Lady-in-waiting is itself a catchall term for a woman who serves a female royal. Among the queen's attendees, there are more specific, tiered job titles, though the system isn't strictly codified. The lady-in-waiting of the bedchamber is Her Majesty's right-hand woman and plays a key role in making decisions about social engagements. Ladies of the bedchamber work on a rotating basis throughout the year.

That sounds like a job posting on avcanada. Just needs a "salary: TBD" tag.

I used to have to do my own writing, but this place takes care of that for me.

The problem,, Slatsrick, is that this type of rampie thing is almost exclusively A Canadian thing.
In other countries pilots are ...well pilots. They find this ramp concept laughable.
How exactly are your flying skills not deteriorating when you are working the ramp? It is a way for an operator with a turnstyle flight crew staff to have ready and willings on standby.

Ask yourself this. If you are hired with 200 hours as a rampie, and you work the ramp for a year, exactly how much better of a pilot are you? Thought so.

It is only a reality because some pilots believe it is and agree to it...

And yes, in a perfect world, all the newbies would hold their heads up high and ask if you want to supersize that....and then get hired as a pilot.

But believe what you will. There are operators out there in the old west that thrive on that belief.

And as long as their are newbhores out there willing to ramp, willing to pay for training,and work for nothing, the profession will continue to deteriorate.

It never ceases to amaze me at how low pilots will stoop to get experience....or the chance to get experience. Or how someone will define the situation to suit themselves...we dont need any pilots now , but we can offer you a job on the ramp until an opening comes available.yeh...that is usually the case.
It is never higher new cpl pilots as they are preferential to using lab rats...there are just some things a lab rat will not do.

trey kule wrote: They find this ramp concept laughable.

They also fork out tens of thousands of $ € £ ¥ whatever for type ratings after spending €100,000 on their CPL or frozen ATPL and expect to get on an airbus or 737 at 250hrs. When they can't, they feel ripped off by the industry and pay another $35k and volunteer their time for line training when a pilot could be hired and PAID for that spot. So which is the better system? I find working the ramp a lot less laughable and a lot less damaging to the terms and conditions than the other option.

Slats.....you're part of the problem. Why not be part of the solution? Easier to be a sheep, I guess? As Trey points out....other countries do not do this. I have more respect for the guy waiting tables while a job opens up, than I have for the guy willing to work for peanuts on a ramp.....you guys can say no to ramp jobs. And bonds. You should ............on second thought, who cares?
Illya

cdnpilot77 wrote:

trey kule wrote: They find this ramp concept laughable.

They also fork out tens of thousands of $ € £ ¥ whatever for type ratings after spending €100,000 on their CPL or frozen ATPL and expect to get on an airbus or 737 at 250hrs. When they can't, they feel ripped off by the industry and pay another $35k and volunteer their time for line training when a pilot could be hired and PAID for that spot. So which is the better system? I find working the ramp a lot less laughable and a lot less damaging to the terms and conditions than the other option.

Don't think a CPL would cost anywhere near 100,000 Euros. They all flock to places like Harv's. This, and a year down the road, they're right seat on a 737, and the CDN Ramp Slave, is still a Ramp Slave. Frankly, I think (while they're both bad systems) they may have it closer to correct?
Illya

Illya Kuryakin wrote:

cdnpilot77 wrote:

trey kule wrote: They find this ramp concept laughable.

They also fork out tens of thousands of $ € £ ¥ whatever for type ratings after spending €100,000 on their CPL or frozen ATPL and expect to get on an airbus or 737 at 250hrs. When they can't, they feel ripped off by the industry and pay another $35k and volunteer their time for line training when a pilot could be hired and PAID for that spot. So which is the better system? I find working the ramp a lot less laughable and a lot less damaging to the terms and conditions than the other option.

Don't think a CPL would cost anywhere near 100,000 Euros. They all flock to places like Harv's. This, and a year down the road, they're right seat on a 737, and the CDN Ramp Slave, is still a Ramp Slave. Frankly, I think (while they're both bad systems) they may have it closer to correct?
Illya

In some cases as high as €135,000 with the guarantee of an INTERVIEW only with EasyJet or Ryanair! They can and do spend that much! Then if they do get the job, they make approx €2000/mo to sit right seat, and live in London or Paris, and pay their own hotel and expenses when on training AND on Layovers! I didn't say it was right, just less laughable. So, Which is more admirable, working for a position or buying it? Last I heard Tindi was 2-3 years on the ramp...is that still accurate? There are much better places to look no doubt!

So then, in essence what you're saying, is all pilots are retarded? Can't argue with the facts now, can I?
Illya

That's mostly a fair statement!

trey kule wrote:The problem,, Slatsrick, is that this type of rampie thing is almost exclusively A Canadian thing.
In other countries pilots are ...well pilots. They find this ramp concept laughable.

Well what realities exist in other countries are of zero consequence to a new CPL looking for work exclusively in Canada. They might as well deal with the reality in which they exist. I mean, in many countries women are worth less than livestock. It's a reality I personally find worse than laughable, yet one they best be mindful of if self-preservation is on their to-do list.

How exactly are your flying skills not deteriorating when you are working the ramp? It is a way for an operator with a turnstyle flight crew staff to have ready and willings on standby.

Ask yourself this. If you are hired with 200 hours as a rampie, and you work the ramp for a year, exactly how much better of a pilot are you? Thought so.

I suppose wearing a hair net and slinging coffee and donuts is your preferred method of improving your flight skills as well as your chances of getting a flying spot? Sounds like a well thought out, logical choice.

Illya Kuryakin wrote:Slats.....you're part of the problem.

If approaching reality with common sense and logic is a problem, I guess I'm guilty as charged. If you prefer to arrogantly abide in some non-existent utopia, that's your prerogative.

I am not defending p2f programs at all. But, like so many things, people like to drag out an example as use it as a general condition.

The simple fact is pilots in other countries are hired as pilots.

Yes Canada is unique in that we still continue to crank out more new pilots than are needed. And some companies have recognized that fact to exploit it. However they can exploit it only as long as there are pilots around who are willing to allow themselves to be exploited.

The companies will tell you that it gives them the opportunity to see how you fit in and your work ethic etc etc. you have to wonder what ability the management really possesses when it takes them a year or to to assess someones suitability by doing a job they were not there to do in the first place.
It is closer to the truth to say that they could not get dedicated ramp rats to do what pilots will do to prove themselves.
And once you understand the creatures you have well you can hang out the carrot of the right seat....at starvation wages of course. They are not concerned about competency. Just a warm body to make regulators and customers happy.

New pilots, on the other hand seem to think this is the way it has to be, and will offer all sorts of rationalizations for their decision. Question there rationale, and they typically will noy see the light, but staunchly defend this exploitation of themselves.

But slats is correct. It is the reality at this point , and as long as pilots can rationalize to themselves that this behaviour is OK, nothing will likely change.

We were interviewing a potential new pilot a few years back. I asked him if, since we were not a rich organization, would he be willing to work for free for 6 months to a year. He said an immediate YES. I said an equally immediate FU$& OFF!
As far as turning out more pilots than we need, we're doing the same in almost all disciplines. I know of more than several people with degrees flipping burgers, and serving doughnuts! But they're NOT cleaning schools or offices "waiting" for a job. They're getting on with life.
Illya