Redundant now

A couple things to consider:

1) You do not have ANY pic experience. You might think it's as simple as moving the left by two feet, it's not.

2) If you're ready, why hasn't your current company promoted you?

3) Don't expect a company who you have never worked for to look at your 1000hrs of right seat king air time amd think "Oh he must be captain material". Everywhere I have ever worked have either promoted from within (at the 3k ish mark) or when hiring DEC they were in the 5-7k Range with plenty of PIC on type.

Personally I wouldn't promote anyone off the street, regardless of how ready or experienced they think they are.

E

Funny how someone who lived the Cinderella
story and climbed into the right seat of a twin
turbine at 200TT is now the underdog ...

The good news is that your right seat time now
counts 1:1 for your ATPL, which you can get
the moment your personal Hobbs meter clicks
over to 1500.0

You do have that pesky night PIC x/c time, don't you?

250 hours pilot-in-command flight time in aeroplanes which shall include where applicable, a maximum of 100 hours pilot-in-command under supervision flight time completed in accordance with Section 421.11. The pilot-in-command and/or pilot-in-command under supervision flight time shall include a minimum of 100 hours cross-country flight time of which a minimum of 25 hours shall have been by night;

This sounds like one of those situations where you feel you deserve the left seat, however you have not EARNED the left seat.

Hate to break it to you but esp803 is absolutely correct in the fact that your still a VERY low time pilot. If you wish to get some PIC time now I would suggest appyling to operators that run 206's, 208's. Build some time there and than look at getting back into the IFR world.

Most operations will require an ATPL for the left seat of a turbine twin.
1200 TT is still 300 (MINUM) away from an ATPL.
Nobody puts anybody in the left seat of their King Air without previous PIC. Nobody.
Advice.....get a Navajo job as a left sweater for 1000 hours....go from there.

All you pilots working ramps etc., take note. Thou shall require PIC eventually in order to advance to the left seat.....so if the folks you're ramping for don't have singles or piston twins, you could be facing this dilemma.
Illya

Joey, Do ya like Navajos and towns that begin with "FORT" or end in "LAKE"?

Anyone know any companies that are upgrading a 1200 multi turbine co-pilot to a captain job ?

All the companies I am familiar with are not in the business of upgrading. They are in the aviation business and hire pilots...maybe google career streamer strategies.

The stark truth is you have a tough row to hoe now. Navajo operators are not going to look favourably at you as they will not want to make the outlay for training when it it appears you will simply jump ship when the next career ladder rung is available.

Nothing I can offer to help you. Some of us have been posting about this problem for a few years now.

Yes , I am being harsh. Hopefully some of those young'ins getting out of school will see the folly of taking this career path. That right seat in a shiney turbine usually leads nowhere for a 200 hour pilot.

Changes in Latitudes wrote:Joey, Do ya like Navajos and towns that begin with "FORT" or end in "LAKE"?

The Princes, the Forts, the Inlets, the Bays. Good times.

Perimeter. I know a guy that upgraded at 1200 hours. Even he knows he wasn't ready for it. Somehow he didn't kill himself though.

There are a lot of captain's like that that enjoy the luxury of MPIC time that was awarded due to being at the right place and right time, but in fact have no business being a commander even when they hit the 5000 level. Because the rule of primacy shines through like a you know what. They weren't taught from the get go what it means to be a captain and whilst experiences in between hours logged will hopefully acquire some teachable moments, it sill doesn't equate to a proper commander. Take a look at what an AC pilot or an EK pilot goes through to earn the left seat? It sure humbles their 10000 hours of "valuable" time in the book. Think about that one for a sec and then ask your self what inter/intra personal abilities you have to be the commander of an airplane, the manager of a flight deck, and the leader of a team. The left seat is no longer just about flying the plane; hopefully in your time you've proved you can do that. Now it's the management of a revolving merry-go around and you being able to identify what style to adopt for each scenario to present a positive outcome. And I'm sorry, but at 1200 hours and 16 years to go to your 20 year high school reunion, you don't have that ability. And 50 hours of line indoc won't teach you that either.

Operating an aircraft from the left seat isn't what makes you a good captain. Neither does total time.

I'll paint this scenario. A 45 year old dude, with 1500 hours total time and 20 years in management and leadership roles will be a far superior captain to a 21 year old dud with 1500 hours and 1000 hours SIC MPIC. For reasons other than the logbook of course. Yet time over, this industry regards time as the golden aspect of suitability for the left seat. Mind you, I agree that 1200 hours is no where close to being a Captain. But then again, what business does a 250 hour wonder have being an instructor.

This is why programs like contrails are a huge scam and often times than not is the facilitator of heavy MPIC time being regarded as superior to actual commander skills. It creates employment opportunities based on need, and not based on suitability. Don't get me wrong, often times than not a good quality logbook indicates an even stronger quality person behind it. But far too many times it's so opposite that you just have to bang your head against the wall.

Look at the vast number of companies out there. How many individuals are actually put through an upgrade course? The most that I know of send you to do a PPC in the left seat, come back and do some 50 hours of line indoc, then they cut you loose as a captain. Very little emphasis is actually put into developing your management and leadership skills to do the job competently. But somehow we all truck along and make it. Until something like Resolute happens and your x amount of years in that commander seat with all that heavy MPIC time becomes the whim of a late go around.

Best of luck and don't be in such a rush!

You probably won't like my advice either
but go fly a Van for a year somewhere.

trey kule wrote:

All the companies I am familiar with are not in the business of upgrading. They are in the aviation business and hire pilots.

Best quote in a long time. What you want is absolutely immaterial, the only thing the company cares about is running a successful business. Pilot hiring is to fill company needs, so what Mr Serious Pilot do you bring to the table that would make anyone want to hire you ? Think hard about that question and work on the areas where you don't measure up.

I was upgraded to the left seat of a King Air 200 at 1200TT.

If the Captains you currently fly with are not supporting your upgrade you need to listen to them and work on your weak areas.

I had the support of all my Captains and I still though it was early to upgrade.

It helped that I was so far north that it was hard to keep anyone with experience.

I am going to go out on a limb here, but maybe the company requires an ATPL to sit in the left seat.
Time to go out and get 300 more hours, and the other requirements....
Then of course bail on whatever company provided you with that opportunity.

I do not expect this applies to the original poster.

The Van idea is actually a pretty good one. But typically expecting one of the career streamers to actually stay a whole year...a bit optimistic.

Well I cant do anything for the OP, perhaps the message will filter down to all the up and coming college grads...dont believe the one off success stories. They are not the norm, and for every one of them there are several heartbreak stories. Any operator with Navajos will tell you that they receive resumes regularly from pilots in similar circumstances. Good operators want people to stick around, not get their ticket punched and immediately move on.

Best of luck to the OP.

I am slightly fascinated by this. To the OP, I am curious, how did you approach this with your employer? Is this your research here to go to your employer and ask for the upgrade? What was your impression getting into this job, that at the magical 1000hrs on type was the auto upgrade time? I am genuinely curious. Upgrade times and conditions, as stated above, vary wildly from company to company. It may be insurance or company policy or simply how much the current captains/CP like you, or a combination of the aforementioned.

Sit back and wait your turn, learn every day, and for gods sake don't start making demands where you have no basis to back up those demands.

We are curiously awaiting your next posting on the matter. There is some good advice here, but what is it really that you intend to gain through this question?

Lots of times... upgrades only come with attrition or expansion.... ask any airline first officer about this.

The big hurdle is getting your ATPL... which you still have a ways to go and possibly no way to get some of the hours other than paying for them yourself.

The people who I've found upgraded the fastest were flight instructors who jumped to a twin turbine at about the 1000 hour mark. They got all the PIC they needed, all of the night PIC they needed (the only way you are going to log night PIC in a single and get paid for it is as an instructor), a bit of instrument and multi PIC if they are lucky... then it is just building up those final total time hours and getting some real-world turbine IFR experience.

This should be required reading for anyone who wants to do a multi-turbine IFR career path. Otherwise you are stuck right seat at low wages while the instructor who started after you gets upgraded before you.

Illya Kuryakin wrote:Nobody puts anybody in the left seat of their King Air without previous PIC. Nobody.

This statement is simply false. I've worked for two King Air operators that upgraded their FOs once they were deemed competent to act as captains, regardless of whether they had any PIC time above and beyond that obtained during licencing. I also know of a number of others at which this is the case, and where it's possible to get an upgrade with 1500 hours and no ATPL, thereby gaining any necessary PIC time required for an airline licence. These upgrades are almost exclusively given to those who've worked for the company since they only had 200 hours though, which ensures that the company knows them very well and is comfortable with their abilities, so they're not likely to be of much use to the OP.

Void

Four years....1000 hours! That is not much flight time a year. I do more than that and I am a seagull.

If your company is downsizing, i hate to say this, but dont be the last guy to leave. But maybe just start looking for a company to work for who will pay you fairly and treat you well rather than who will give you an immediate upgrade.

The van time will be gold.

If it takes you more than 750 hrs to be able to upgrade you should get out of the industry.
For the OP, get some PIC time.

Not sure that is correct. Lots of companies require an ATPL for the left seat. You cant go from 200 to 1500 hours in 750 hours...those pesky little flight and duty time records the companies keep put a damper on creative logging.

And, as someone pointed out, time and licenses dont equate to command ability

One of the great things about seniority numbers is that they allow the incompetent, lazy, and dangerous to progress.
At least until they bend some metal.
I have seen resumes from pilots with 2800 TT...2500 in the right seat of a heavy and zero chance of upgrade with their present company. Some of the more honest ones (or stupid, depending on your perspective) actually put in their cover letter that they are just looking for PIC time to be able to return to their company.

Where I work, you are expected to upgrade by 500 hrs. If you don't, you get put under a microscope and it may be the end of your career. Just throwing a fresh perspective out there.

B208 wrote:Where I work, you are expected to upgrade by 500 hrs. If you don't, you get put under a microscope and it may be the end of your career. Just throwing a fresh perspective out there.

In what? A 185/206?
Twin turbines like (eg only) King Airs, your insurance will require an ATPL.
I'm not talking a certain company beside a "Great" lake that could second for an opium den, either.
Generally speaking, you will need some PIC, and an ATPL.
The Colonel's advice about the Van is sound.

Youflyboyscrackmeup.....I'm calling bullshit.

Illya

The post appears to be a "bait post" and it got a lot of bites, and good advice
if, the post was true.

Illya Kuryakin wrote:

B208 wrote:Where I work, you are expected to upgrade by 500 hrs. If you don't, you get put under a microscope and it may be the end of your career. Just throwing a fresh perspective out there.

In what? A 185/206?
Twin turbines like (eg only) King Airs, your insurance will require an ATPL.
I'm not talking a certain company beside a "Great" lake that could second for an opium den, either.
Generally speaking, you will need some PIC, and an ATPL.
The Colonel's advice about the Van is sound.

Youflyboyscrackmeup.....I'm calling bullshit.

Illya

Try C17. King Airs are trainers.

B208 wrote:Try C17. King Airs are trainers.

Military to Civilian is an apples to oranges comparison. As for the guy who upgraded to captain at 1200tt, I do know a king air operator who has promoted from within at roughly that time point. They also pay half of what the former company paid for captains doing the same arctic medevac flying. When you can't attract high time drivers due to pay, you upgrade people who otherwise would not be qualified. That being said, I've met the occasional 1200tt cojo who I would endorse for an upgrade, but they are few and far between. On a semi anonymous internet forum it's hard to judge peoples ability.

seriousflyer wrote:only some of them were non judgmental, some people are so quick to judge or imply a certain criteria exists.

seriousflyer wrote:I friend of mine got upgraded after leaving my company at 900TT to a BE20 Capt. I also know pilots who have no PIC time and are flying right seats on 37's and heavy turbo props.
King airs are great airplanes to learn on, high performance IFR machines call for some quick learning and good piloting, especially in the Arctic. Pilots develop high skill, especially if you get FlightSafety training, like I have twice

Statements like this are why some of the VERY high time posters were quick to judge. 900tt king air captain may exist in the civilian world, but he is an abnormality. And yah there are some pilots out there who are flying 37's and heavy turbo props IN THE RIGHT SEAT, with no PIC time. King Airs are great airplanes to learn on, they are also the easiest airplane I've ever flown (Not trying to knock Illya, they are just fantastic airplanes). FlightSafety makes you a safer pilot by allowing you to run drills that you couldn't safely do in a real airplane, I'd wager my left nut that 99% of people behave and perform completely differently in a simulator then in a real emergency. You can't simulated the fear of death in a simulator, no matter how realistic it is. Go out there, get some PIC time flying something like 'van' and then once you have some time making decisions re: icing, alternates, go-no-go, and abnormal situations you will be a much better candidate for upgrade.

I know a lot of people preach that Multi Turbine time is gold, however think about this:

If you are flying in the arctic your average legs are probably over an hour, so let's say you've flown 1000 legs, half of those the captain would have been flying, so you've flown 500, of those 500 hours how many were spent with the autopilot on? With a few exceptions, I'd wager my right nut that the 600hour float pilot who does .3 legs in an airplane without autopilot is a more highly skilled pilot then the guy who has done 2 flight safety courses.

Go fly a light single somewhere, they're a blast and they can pay very well if you find the right gig. Upgrades will come with time, just stick with it and when someone else thinks you're ready for an upgrade it will happen.

E