Weekly West Wind Captain Ad

[Buckandchange]

Just wondering when management over there will realize maybe lower their requirements would be a better recruitment tactic. I'm guessing the line of people with that time and wanting to my to Sask. is short.

[HO Driver]

From what I hear from a friend inside, there will be a lot more ads in the near future.

[rigpiggy]

I don't think the qualifications are out of line, just the terms and conditions. Another operator in ype is offering 80k+ benefits for a weekly rotation. In a better tax regime. Westwind used to be a destination company, now it is just another stepping stone.
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[leftoftrack]

I don't think the qualifications are out of line, just the terms and conditions. Another operator in ype is offering 80k+ benefits for a weekly rotation. In a better tax regime. Westwind used to be a destination company, now it is just another stepping stone.

+1

[Captain X]

I hear the starting pay is 65k. Saskatoon is now one of the more expensive places to live in Canada. Time to up the ante.

[x-wind]

Exactly, I'm qualified but not applying because the pay is too low.

[Flypilot]

What is a normal starting wage if 65K is on the low side? Just wondering what companies are paying

[Captain X]

A few spots in AB are paying 80k

[leftoftrack]

Up again

[sstaurus]

Is there a contract reason why they're set on 500mpic?

[HO Driver]

Is there a contract reason why they're set on 500mpic?

Must be a customer requirement. Also, if you have 500 MPIC, there might be a slightly less chance of making the typical green captain mistakes. Chewing up composite props on gravel, landing with the gear-up, taking off with snow on the wings, treating the F/O like a second class slave, etc.

[sstaurus]

Oh I'd agree, but don't see why the 'm' needs to be in front of the PIC. Just thinking they'd get more applicants..

[turbo-prop]

Oh I'd agree, but don't see why the 'm' needs to be in front of the PIC. Just thinking they'd get more applicants..

Because they have two engines on all their airplanes.

[X-Savior]

Oh I'd agree, but don't see why the 'm' needs to be in front of the PIC. Just thinking they'd get more applicants..

Because they have two engines on all their airplanes.

So what you are telling us then is making command decisions and getting real command experience is different between 2 and 1 engines (having that extra engine requires a different breed of pilot)? MPIC is so much more superior to just PIC time that anyone with just PIC is also a second class citizen? now let's go so much further with this... Let's say you have 500 MPIC Jet time, so this makes you even MORE superior to fly a King Air or 1900 then say a pilot with 500 MPIC on a King Air or PIC on a PC12?

[Wacko]

now let's go so much further with this... Let's say you have 500 MPIC Jet time, so this makes you even MORE superior to fly a King Air or 1900 then say a pilot with 500 MPIC on a King Air or PIC on a PC12?

Yeah.. I would agree with that statement... flying a jet is harder than a prop because it's harder to slow down and descend. Anyone flying a pressurized prop would tell you... bring the power back, push the props forward and (most) prop aircraft will sink like a rock.... unfortunately, jets don't have them big discs in front of the engines.

Having said that... V1 cuts a a b!tch on a prop compared to a jet.

Managing two engines IS different than managing a single. Say a PC12 has an engine failure.... you're pretty much hoping you break out of the crap before hitting the ground so you can find a landing spot. Two engine can afford you more time. The 1900D will have no problem taking you to a suitable airport if the engine fails but you have to take many tings under consideration like services, winds etc. With a 1900D you also have to consider things like passenger facilities etc. V1 engine failures ARE a big deal as as Vmc etc.

[schnitzel2k3]

I think if Westwind instituted a PIC U.S.V program they would have an easier time upgrading their pilots internally and could potentially do away with the majority of external hires (as well as with these weekly ads).

Problem is their customer and fleet are limiting with regards to upgrading their F/O's. The 200 requires around 2500 hrs and 500 pic (don't quote me), but it doesn't fly enough to be a suitable upgrade machine. A lot of 200 captains sit on type due to the comfortable northern schedule (2/2), therefore not a lot of vacant seats (probably 1 or 2 a year). Those out of Saskatoon do a lot of medivac holds and charter work - not a good way to build time for the bigger machines either.

The bag planes only fly around 1 flight hour a day - give or take on the route. This only allows those pilots to build around 250-300 hrs a year depending on power settings and weather. Again horrible time builder - plus most of those guys are dual typed which means the demand of the bigger machines prevail. It works ok in that those pilots can build time on say the 1900 or Jetstream but it takes a while to meet the Captains requirements for the 1900 which are still 3k (plus or minus the 500 mpic - it's not an internal necessity - it just means you don't fly Cameco/mine or charter work).

The 1900 is the only plane in the fleet that is a great padder of the logbook. Most of those guys fly around 800+ hrs a year (some who bid for the right/wrong? schedule can fly in excess of 1000). Unfortunately without a PIC USV ops spec or training system in place they are required to wait for the guys on the 200 (generally) or hire externally.

With the recent exodus of 1900 drivers to Westjet and the likes - the company is looking for some of the most demanded pilots in the industry (3k, 500 mpic, 1900 typed prefered). It's unfortunate, but this might help management seek alternative methods to continue supplying their fleet with well experienced pilots.

The 1900 gig is not - I repeat - is not a lifestyle choice at Westwind due to the erratic nature of the mission types. It is however a great time and experience builder because of its wide range of usage (it literally covers for every other aircraft in the fleet). While the company has changed over the last few years Westwind still is a great company to work for (despite the grumblings of a few middleweight pilots). The schedule is alright as well - if you are from out of town the AC jumpseat benefits help keep you close to your family and the 9/5 schedule will give you ok time off (generally Saturdays are reserve days - Sundays are sched).

Food for thought.

S.

[X-Savior]

now let's go so much further with this... Let's say you have 500 MPIC Jet time, so this makes you even MORE superior to fly a King Air or 1900 then say a pilot with 500 MPIC on a King Air or PIC on a PC12?

Yeah.. I would agree with that statement... flying a jet is harder than a prop because it's harder to slow down and descend. Anyone flying a pressurized prop would tell you... bring the power back, push the props forward and (most) prop aircraft will sink like a rock.... unfortunately, jets don't have them big discs in front of the engines.

Having said that... V1 cuts a a b!tch on a prop compared to a jet.

Managing two engines IS different than managing a single. Say a PC12 has an engine failure.... you're pretty much hoping you break out of the crap before hitting the ground so you can find a landing spot. Two engine can afford you more time. The 1900D will have no problem taking you to a suitable airport if the engine fails but you have to take many tings under consideration like services, winds etc. With a 1900D you also have to consider things like passenger facilities etc. V1 engine failures ARE a big deal as as Vmc etc.

Well I think we need to elaborate on this a little. You seem to be focused only on aircraft specific quirks.

Let's look at what "Pilot in Command" time means. It was said they do not want rookie Captains making rookie mistakes.

So being a PIC is more then just being a Pilot. PIC and SIC are both trained to the same standard and are both able to fly the aircraft to required proficiency. So the ability to slow down an aircraft or perform a V1 cut would be no different regardless of how many bars you have on your shoulder. These are all aircraft specific training and all pilots are expected to be able to perform PRIOR to flying on the line.

So now what really makes the difference between (M)PIC time and SIC time? It is the ability to make the command decisions with final authority... It is being able to evaluate your situation using all your available resources (including SIC) and make a decision and follow through while constantly re-evaluating. It is the ability to accept responsibility for your aircraft, crew and pax to ensure everything is operated within legal and company procedures.

So how again does this Prop MPIC differentiate from Single Prop PIC or Jet MPIC when you take into account an individuals SIC time also? So if you have Pilot A who has 500 Hours MPIC Jet and 100 Hours SIC on a 1900D and Pilot B with 100 Hours Piston MPIC and 1500 Hours SIC on the 1900D. How is Pilot A more qualified then Pilot B for a 1900D Captain position? Now what if Pilot C has 1000 PIC on a PC12 where does this pilot fit in? According to you then Pilot C is the LEAST qualified pilot for a 1900D Captain position?

I think there are MANY more factors involved in what makes a pilot suitable for a Captain position then just a defined Amount of MPIC.... Where have the pilots been flying? What quality experience do they have? It is a complete package when looking at the suitability of a person for a position. Not a sheet of paper that says ("We need XXX Hours to make sure he/she is a good pilot")

[seriousflyer]

But MPIC takes more technique than flying a single, therefor requiring MPIC hours to practice- I dunno say 500 hours should do it.

[X-Savior]

But MPIC takes more technique than flying a single, therefor requiring MPIC hours to practice- I dunno say 500 hours should do it.

But once again this is an aircraft specific thing... Not specific to PIC or SIC (since either Pilot should have these "technique" skills).

So what PIC Only specific Skills are different between Single/Multi/Jet that makes a SIC unqualified to move up to PIC on the same aircraft but another individual with completely unrelated experience (Say 500 hours of Jet MPIC) a superior candidate for Direct Entry Capt (Say on a 1900D for arguments sake)?

This comes back to my argument regarding the difference between Single/Multi/Jet PIC time and why a pilot with say PC12 PIC is unqualified/inferior for a MPIC Prop DEC

[Wacko]

If you can't tell the difference between a single engine aircraft and a multi engine aircraft and the complexities that come with it there's really no point in continuing. I do agree to some extent that a guy with 2000 SIC time should have at the very LEAST the same operational knowledge compared to a guy with 500 PIC however the next question I would have for a guy like that is why do you have 2000 hours in the right seat and still not upgraded.

To believe there's a certain order of things as far as progression. Both pilots and operators know this. As an example if company X ask for 500 PIC hours on jet aircraft over 20T it is inherently assumed that that pilot will have thousands of hours of various experience to get him to that 500 jet PIC.

[X-Savior]

You make a very good point.

So let's refine this a little then... We have 2 pilots:

one has a total of 500 MPIC on a Twin Commanche (for arguments sake lets say that is all the PIC they have) and then 500 hours SIC on the 1900D.

Now Pilot B has 1000 PIC on a PC12 and 500 hours SIC on the 1900D

Who is more qualified to receive the upgrade to Capt on the 1900D? According to "Client Requirements" and Contrail and other BS Pilot A is more superior of a pilot but logic says Pilot B is a much more experienced Captain...and is therefore better suited for the position.

Now I am not saying an instructor with 5000 hours in a C150 should be qualified to be dumped left seat in a Citation X cause he/she has a boatload of PIC.

[flyinhigh]

X-Savior,

Your starting to sound like someone that cannot get off the PC-12 as you lack the MPIC.

Wether you agree with it or not, MPIC is key in this industry to succeed.

The 500 MPIC may not be (and is probably not) the companies requirement. Probably CONTRACT requirement as the client thinks that single engine aircraft are little toys and that your time on the PC-12 is useless. (By the way I actually love the PC-12)

[X-Savior]

Well for your information I have never flown a PC12 or C208 and have plenty of Turbine MPIC so this issue has nothing to do with me. I do know many people who do fly PC12 and I do think it is not fair in many ways to group PC12 PIC in the same category as C150 PIC but that seems to be the reality of the situation. The PC12 being a pressurized high performance aircraft SHOULD be recognized as more then "single engine" time in the eyes of Contrail and Client Requirements.

I just feel this is a loophole in the industry that may not provide fair opportunities to experienced PC12 crews.

There is a PC12 operator who has been transitioning their crews to jets with the retirement if the PC12 and from my understanding it has been a smooth transition and the PC12 was a fantastic Platform to move over from. So it has been proven that PC12 time can be very valuable.

I also did not mean to hijack this topic but it is also to point out how due to technicalities an experienced crew member might get stepped over by a lesser experienced DEC. Just some food for thought.

[TeePeeCreeper]

Well for your information I have never flown a PC12 or C208 and have plenty of Turbine MPIC so this issue has nothing to do with me. I do know many people who do fly PC12 and I do think it is not fair in many ways to group PC12 PIC in the same category as C150 PIC but that seems to be the reality of the situation. The PC12 being a pressurized high performance aircraft SHOULD be recognized as more then "single engine" time in the eyes of Contrail and Client Requirements.

I just feel this is a loophole in the industry that may not provide fair opportunities to experienced PC12 crews.

There is a PC12 operator who has been transitioning their crews to jets with the retirement if the PC12 and from my understanding it has been a smooth transition and the PC12 was a fantastic Platform to move over from. So it has been proven that PC12 time can be very valuable.

I also did not mean to hijack this topic but it is also to point out how due to technicalities an experienced crew member might get stepped over by a lesser experienced DEC. Just some food for thought.

Your absolutely right, although I don't work for that company, I have many friends whom do.
It's worked out for them (my friends and their employer) very, very well!!!

All the best,
TPC

[rigpiggy]

BTT, btw xman, hitching about requirements won't do any good. The mines drive the requirements, maybe the lack of candidates will drive up wages