Value of instructing time?

[mathias_now]

There seems to be more and more instructors well over the 1500 hr mark these days. Has the value of instructing time gone down or has it just been a really slow season for hiring? It appears that the 200 hr ramp-to-right seat people are advancing through the industry more rapidly.

Also, at what hour mark does single-engine instructing time become unfavorable?

Thanks,

MN

[loopa]

PIC is PIC.

I know instructors that got on a 1900 with 2000 single engine PIC time, and 6 months later they were captains on that machine. This has happened several times actually.

I know ramp guys that started flying after I started flying (for pay), and are now in the right seat of a Lear 45 and will do a captain ride in a year. Another one is going to the right seat of an RJ but down in the states, so perhaps not a common career path for a Canadian.

My suggestion would be, which ever path you decide to go with, stick with it until you get your turbine gig. Jumping between instructing and ramp for instance would in my opinion slow things down. Then when you get your first turbine gig, stick with it until you go Captain at that Company. Put in your time as a captain at the company, and then move on if that is something you want to do. The MPIC will be extremely beneficial, especially in Alberta.

If you got MPIC coming out of instructing, that will improve your upgrade potentials on the turbine gig you get on.

Timing of the industry matters as well. When things are moving, lower time instructors usually get gigs.

The trick is to find an operator that does value PIC as an instructor because there definitely are operators that will argue that it is worthless time.

Then you got job ads like Calm Air http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... =7&t=97616 that will consider you based on lower time as well.

A big component to your career is deciding if Alberta is where you want to advance. If that is where you want to move up the latter, as much PIC and MPIC that you have the better. It is a captains province. North Cariboo BE20 ad proves my point that PIC is PIC and in Alberta, that is important. http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... =7&t=97617

As an example, several YYC and YEG B1900 captains became 737NG captains at Enerjet around the year mark with the company. Ton of MPIC, and room for left seat progression. Now the world is their oyster with job ads like this. http://www.pilotcareercentre.com/Pilot- ... +Abu+Dhabi

Or Air Canada calls you at 2000 hours of instructing time like they have in the past. But that probably will not happen until they start hiring again.

Or you are a 6000 hour 705 Captain, with a ton of MPIC, and a great head on your shoulders, yet for some reason AC WestJet will not call you.

Best of luck!

[Illya Kuryakin]

Is this subject not a dead horse......yet?
Illya

[Wacko]

Excluding the debate of being an ethical instructor and the value of logging 40 circuits daily.....

... my suggestion was to instruct until you can apply for an ATPL or be short just enough so you can apply within a year of working for an operator... ~1000TT

With the new 1:1 in effect it becomes a bit more difficult. PIC is not PIC.... even multi-pic is relative. You can have 10000 hours of PIC under your belt and still won't qualify for a Captain position to fly a King Air (this was a topic posted as well (PC12 PIC vs light twin PIC).

In a perfect world, with someone who's done their research.. you would work the ramp in a company which counts your time with or without a license... while you work on your licenses and by the time you finish ~2 years you'll be called to go in the right seat.

I believe that a 2000 hour instructor will have limited or no significant value to contribute in the right seat of an IFR operation HOWEVER they might be able to satisfy certain client requirements that a 200 hour guy wont.

The 1:1 has definitely changed the dynamic....

[Krimson]

instructing:
doing 1 flight 1000 times

vs

doing 1000 flights 1 time

[photofly]

I'm enjoying the unstated assumption that instructing is only a step to the right seat of something bigger.

Widen your horizons, for goodness sake.

[Illya Kuryakin]

I'm enjoying the unstated assumption that instructing is only a step to the right seat of something bigger.

Widen your horizons, for goodness sake.

This is avcanada mate. The horizon is the far side of the keyboard.
Illya

[photofly]

Haha, so true.

[Big Pistons Forever]

instructing:
doing 1 flight 1000 times

vs

doing 1000 flights 1 time

When I first heard that line it was from a young guy flying a Ho exclusively between Victoria and Vancouver. "But my flying is different, it is MEPIC !" was his outraged reply when I pointed out the irony of what he said........

I guess I should not be surprised that the thread topic soon attracted the "instructors are all crap" Avcanada mouth breathers.

Anyway back on topic. The way the industry is currently structured there is not very much incentive to stay in the instructing game very long and from what i see most instructors are burnt out by the time they hit the 1500 to 2000 hour mark so that IMO is a good time to leave. That is what I did and in retrospect it was the right decision.

However I have kept up my instructor ratings for what is now 24 + years since I was a full time instructor. I find Instructing part time where you can pick and choose your students and work on mostly your own schedule is very satisfying. I still get a gig kick out of watching an eager and motivated student blossom when it all starts to come together for them.

As for the value of instructing time...well there are obviously varying opinions about that. Any operator that won't hire instructors is IMO saying more about themselves, and not in a good way, than about the value of instructing hours.

At the end of the day if you are a 1500 hr guy, regardless of how you got those hours, what will get you an interview is luck, and who you know. What will get you the job is your attitude, being able to demonstrate a reasonable level of skills and knowledge, and giving the impression that you posses a reasonable amount of common sense.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Last two guys we hired were instructors. Already know the procedures. Very easy to train. They've worked out really well. From now on, I can see us shopping for instructors when we need somebody.
Illya

[wallypilot]

I instructed for a short time. Many years ago. I would say the majority of my time was not in the circuit. I spent a lot of time demonstrating maneuvers.

15 some odd years on now, I credit my good hands and feet skills at least in part to having to demonstrate spins, stalls, high crosswind landings, slow flight, etc.

I find what's lacking in a lot of newbies is hands and feet skills. Going straight into your first job with a 3 axis autopilot is a death sentence to the development of those skills. I spent 9 years mostly hand flying (including the 1 year as instructor) before getting into the automatic environment and in retrospect I am thankful for the experience, since now my hand flying time equals about 1% of of airtime.

[trey kule]

I'm enjoying the unstated assumption that instructing is only a step to the right seat of something bigger.

I am not sure it is unstated Looking for ink in the logbook to move on.
Ask any of them and they will tell you while that is their motivation they are pretty good instructors in the meantime......and then go on to explain why it takes 70 hours to get a ppl from their school.

Anyone that thinks instructing is continually doing circuits displays nothing but ignorance.

The problem is the pay and working conditions for instructors are not conducive to making it a career.

I am afraid that until it stops being simply an easy entry way to log time, the situation will continue.
My hats off to the career instructors who are there to teach.

As far as hiring. Our experiences have been good and bad, and I never found any real connection, except for the attitude of some instructors that they can fly anything with wings, and better than any of the Captains..big difference in operational flying than in a flight school.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Trey, we can all "fly anything with wings", the variable being, how well we fly it.
Cheers
Illya

[iflyforpie]

I'm enjoying the unstated assumption that instructing is only a step to the right seat of something bigger.

Widen your horizons, for goodness sake.

For those who are deriving their income solely from aviation..... and typically have a personal net worth in the negatives...... that's pretty much a given.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Lemon meringue pie.......
Illya

[Wacko]

This post, as I understand it, was not intended for debate of value OF instructor time but rather of the progression in the industry WITH instructor time.

At the end of the day, if you read my first post you will be way further ahead in the industry as a whole doing the ramp thing... especially if you start the ramp as you start your training.

Everything else being equal, I bet you 95% of Canadian operators will take 1500 hours of right seat King Air time over 1500 hours of instructor time... if you get lucky and gain some turbine PIC you'll be light years ahead of an instructor with his 1500 PIC in a 172.

[Illya Kuryakin]

At the end of the day, if you read my first post you will be way further ahead in the industry as a whole doing the ramp thing....

Two years of instructing and you have 1000-1200 PIC
Two years on the ramp and you have......forklift driving skills, and NO current flight skills. Just then 200 hours you went in with.
Yup, you are on drugs.
Illya

[Big Pistons Forever]

At the end of the day, if you read my first post you will be way further ahead in the industry as a whole doing the ramp thing....

Two years of instructing and you have 1000-1200 PIC
Two years on the ramp and you have......forklift driving skills, and NO current flight skills. Just then 200 hours you went in with.
Yup, you are on drugs.
Illya

The instructor and you the, the rampie, will both be in the same initial ground school for your first turbine FO gig. Better be nice to him because when he gets upgraded in a year or less you are going to be his copilot at least until he moves on to a 705 job and you get to ride with a new Captain because you still don't have enough time to upgrade.....

I have only one request. If you choose the instructor route be the best instructor you can be. I have no problem with guys who put in a couple of years instructing and then move on. What really bothers me is instructors who could not be bothered to do a good job while they are instructing. Those guys are a cancer in the industry and leave an inordinate amount of wreckage in their wake.

[Wacko]

At the end of the day, if you read my first post you will be way further ahead in the industry as a whole doing the ramp thing....

Two years of instructing and you have 1000-1200 PIC
Two years on the ramp and you have......forklift driving skills, and NO current flight skills. Just then 200 hours you went in with.
Yup, you are on drugs.
Illya

From my first post....

In a perfect world, with someone who has done their research.. you would work the ramp in a company which counts your time with or without a license... while you work on your licenses and by the time you finish ~2 years you'll be called to go in the right seat.

Since most of us need to work while doing their PPL/CPL/IFR why not work the ramp? You put in your 2 years and by the time you're done your training you can probably get into an airplane...

NOW.... 2 years down the line.. both guys have 1500 hour... or 1200 or whatever... but one has 1500 SE PIC vs. the other who has 1500 turbine SIC. While the guy with the SIC time needs to figure out how to get his last 30 PIC hours to get his A's... the instructor slides into that FO position for the next 2 years

[DanWEC]

instructing:
doing 1 flight 1000 times

vs

doing 1000 flights 1 time

That's such an obtuse statement it borders on hilarious, why it's a common perspective is beyond me, but clearly perpetuated by people that never instructed, and have completely forgot their own training.

One flight a thousand times?

In a given day, I can fly up to 5 different types, single and multi engine. I know the gamut of performance numbers of each off by heart, along with how to perfectly (I hope) perform all maneuvers in each, respecting the different procedures for each.
While mentioning different procedures, don't forget that every student in an individual- and each have different learning styles and require sight changes to delivery to make it work for them.

Each flight is a completely different "mission" (I use quotes because I know I'm not saving the damn world here, it's only flight instruction) It can be upper air work, instruments, IFR, emergencies, low level diversions, whatever. Usually all in one day, and could be with a G1000 or a plane equipped with only an ADF. The plan could be spontaneously created based on last minute weather.

About the only common thread between any of these flights is taking off and landing on the same runway, but don't forget that, as well, we will likely do circuits on any number of 5 or 6 different local strips, of varying lengths and surfaces....all while doing your best to make sure you student doesn't succeed in their ultimate goal of trying to kill you every minute.

Now, I can't exaggerate the experiences gained from instructing. I'm completely aware that 90 percent of flights occur within a 50 nm radius of the home base, and the other 10 percent within 150nm. Most of the flights are in decent weather, and I'm home in bed every night. A big drawback is the fact that hours can go by without touching the controls.... but I can't help to think that the day of instructor is far more dynamic than most other positions.

Oh, and don't forget you learn how to live on the pay cheque of a squeegee kid. Life skills! I've found the ROI in buying cheaper scotch than I'm used to.

My hat goes off to career instructors. It can be a draining, underpaying job, that requires you to give 100% to each student or else they're not getting what they pay for. I do look forward to moving on when the time comes and giving part time occasional instruction, like BPF has mentioned.

[trey kule]

Wacko...in what world do instructors do 40 circuits daily?

If you do not want debate about the value of instructor time then dont make ludicrous statements like that.

I find instructor time may or may not be valuable...and that assessment affects the person with the hours in their logbook..a quick look at their training record (which can be asked for ), and a call to their FTU, and you can get an idea of whether the hours are worth counting.
Personally, I like to see at least 500 hours as an instructor. Nothing to do with the value of the time, but of the individual.

[timel]

I did 1800 hrs of instruction and aerial work, flown multiple variable pitch, rg aircraft, loads of cessnas, pipers and taildraggers, it gave me a good handling and made me confortable with flying. If you can find little sidelines in aerial work while you teach to give you a little operational experience it's always great.

Not more at maximum 1500-2000 hrs than you should move on to other ifr ops, I know many at 1000hrs that left instruction for the very different world of 703-704. Depends on opportunities you get. When you get one you leave. You'll enjoy flying with professionals at some point, you don't make a career with an instructor job except if it is your school.

That 40 circuits thing a day is ridiculous.
That is a myth of some people who got jobs with stable wages at 300 hrs of flight and are just frustrated at instructors coming in companies with more hours.

[iflyforpie]

It gets monotonous no matter what kind of flying you are doing. Look at Buffalo Joe and how many times we've seen 'the valley run' (I never even made it to season two).

Flying 702/703..... I love training days where I can polish up some steep turns or practice stalls...... because on speed and rate ones only take your skills so far.... even though that is what we strive to achieve.

And that is with me flying hands-on 100% of the time never straight and level for more than a couple minutes. Even if you are blasting off to all kinds of exotic locales..... chances are it's going to be on autopilot

[Illya Kuryakin]

Wacko, I thing working around aviation while you're learning to fly is a great idea. Get in the business and see if you like it. BUT. These companies will only hire "pilots in bondage" to milk some cheap labour out of those foolish enough to do the job. Just try to find one who'll hire somebody without a MEIFR ticket, already in their pocket! I defy to to name just ONE.
Illya

[Wacko]

Wacko...in what world do instructors do 40 circuits daily?

That wasn't meant as a slam but rather the common statements people make... I should have added an emoticon...

Illya, there is a new push to hire guys with little or no experience on the ramp to see if they will fit into the company. Once they have their licenses in hand they are (assuming everything works out like planned) to be placed in the right seat of something.

From what I'm seeing... Canadian companies are now starting to do what the rest of the world has been doing for decades... hire low time guys and bond them for a long time.... NCA comes to mind: http://www.flynca.com/careers/pilot-program as does Georgian http://www.clearedfortakeoff.ca/

Back to my previous post... the question is will going the instructor way give you a leg up in the industry... I am simply saying that with the changes of how co-pilot time is counted and if your plan your first 4 years right, the guy doing ramp while studying will probably be a head of a guy going the instructor route.