Nav Canada Service Charges

[sheephunter]

Mine, for the C180 was $462.38 incl. taxes. Seems to be a bit on the spendy side being that I am on floats and don't very often fly into airports or use their services. What are you guys paying for your 180 / 185's? Has this been increased as I am sure I would have been whining about this before now if it had been this much?

[leftoftrack]

Ever check the weather, file a flight plan, need to relay a message to somewhere else that will save you time and money?

[Colonel Sanders]

Ever buy any fuel? Where do you think the
exise tax is supposed to go?

Can you say "double taxation"? I knew you could.

[ahramin]

As long as they continue with the "class C is restricted" horseshit, I'll continue with the not paying the invoices.

[Braun]

Sorry for working over 60 hours a week and trying to offer the same level of service. Honestly i can understand frustration when restrictions are applied but did you ever sit down and pick up the phone and ask why? Ever visit a center and sit down for a few hours to try and understand? Don't get me wrong I have been frustrated with pilots before but instead of being a prick about it I tried to figure out why the event happened and the other perspectives available to me.

[Shiny Side Up]

I've called on numerous occasions with the intent of trying to find ways to help make the controller's work easier, but in general I've just been stonewalled on that front. I did however get one very revealing bit where I got a, quote, "I shouldn't have to deal with this stupid vfr crap."

And I pay my navcan fees. BTW, really not cool to tell the CAA i'm landing there when I'm not. Even if you feel I deserve an extra charge.

[ahramin]

Braun do you really think working 60 hours a week makes sense? Is all that overtime the best use of NavCanada dollars? Is NavCanada's staffing levels at YVR Center where it should be?

I do pick up the phone, often. I know exactly where the problem is. It's easy to start by simply looking at who is in charge there.

[Big Pistons Forever]

The reality is that Navcanada's Board of Directors are running the place by and for the airlines. They pay the bills and as long as they get the service they want, the organizations GAF about meeting the needs of GA is going to be low. There is no solution and it is going to get worse, get used to it.

[Braun]

Braun do you really think working 60 hours a week makes sense? Is all that overtime the best use of NavCanada dollars? Is NavCanada's staffing levels at YVR Center where it should be?

I do pick up the phone, often. I know exactly where the problem is. It's easy to start by simply looking at who is in charge there.

If you want to have a discussion about management that is another deal. I don't mind working that much because I really enjoy my job and it allows me to save up some extra $$$ in the process. Overtime is cheaper for Nav Canada than having 110% staffing at units because they do not need to pay the pensions/benefits.

So I may have reacted strong but most of us try our best to offer a high level of service in often less than ideal conditions. I am truly sorry sometimes you are penalized for this.

Anyways, I wasn't aware you were all the way out in BC, I can't comment with what is happening in YVR ACC because I work YUL myself.

[Aeroplane17]

Haven't paid my fees in 6+ years. Don't use their services. It's a public accessible website. Double taxation money grab. I'm not falling for it.

[burly]

My 172 has been less than 100$/yr since i bought it 6 years ago. $460 for a 180 seems very high to me.

Side note:

I asked Nav Can management years ago if they could waive my yearly fee for my plane. I believe the response was something like "absolutely not"
My wife and i have been controllers for 10+ years each. This gives you an insight into upper management .....

[ahramin]

And here I was thinking controllers should be better at math than pilots . Braun the reason NavCanada (and the health care system, and my airline for that matter) uses overtime instead of proper staffing levels is not because it saves money, it doesn't. It's because the overtime budget is separate from the staffing budget and the incentives for the managers are to keep the staffing budgets low. Overtime is always going to be required in professions such as ours, but paying 1 person 2 salaries for working as much as 1.5 people does not save money, even including benefits. While I appreciate the effort that many controllers put into doing an excellent job above and beyond the call of duty, I'd much rather see the supervisors, managers, executive officers and directors putting in half as much effort into doing their jobs properly and well.

BPF, speaking from the airline side of things yes we pay more and we are the major driver for the infrastructure and operating costs but no, we aren't getting the service we want either. Canada is one of the most aviation dependent countries in the world, but we aren't winning any awards for our ability to push tin. Having the entity running the national airspace system separate from the aviation regulator may make sense to creative accountants, and may look great for SMS implementation, but the final product certainly suffers in comparison to high traffic countries.

Funny you should mention getting used to it though. I do many flights each year with some owner or another who is tired of avoiding controlled airspace and controlled airports and wants help with their radio work, but when my transponder acted up last month I found myself seriously considering if I actually get any benefit anymore out of the damn thing. Maybe running around here not squawking or talking to anyone has become a reasonable modus operandi.

[Braun]

And here I was thinking controllers should be better at math than pilots . Braun the reason NavCanada (and the health care system, and my airline for that matter) uses overtime instead of proper staffing levels is not because it saves money, it doesn't. It's because the overtime budget is separate from the staffing budget and the incentives for the managers are to keep the staffing budgets low. Overtime is always going to be required in professions such as ours, but paying 1 person 2 salaries for working as much as 1.5 people does not save money, even including benefits. While I appreciate the effort that many controllers put into doing an excellent job above and beyond the call of duty, I'd much rather see the supervisors, managers, executive officers and directors putting in half as much effort into doing their jobs properly and well.

Actually it does save money. Because just training a new employee costs a lot of money in itself. Also keep in mind during a year a lot of overtime shifts cannot be staffed. Either because controllers are maxed out or are not available due to scheduling conflicts. At the end of the year there are a lot of shifts that if we were always full staffed would cost more than to fill the maximum amount of overtime which, even in doing so, will leave a lot of holes. Don't get my wrong, I am no accountant, but with the salary we made last year including OT it definitely is cheaper to replace 1 full time qualified employee with 2 employees working OT to cover. I understand when you mean they use overtime to control budget's and etc...but the truth is you can't just hire and check out a controller within 6 months. Anyways I think we are beside the point anyways. The way I see it is that we, for the most part, try and do our best with what we have. We have average management that often doesn't even have ATC experience making ATC related decisions for us including staffing, airspace and procedures.

EDIT: even as a Nav Canada employee I pay these fees BTW.

[TeePeeCreeper]

Arahmin and Braun,

Thank you for your insightful posts.
They both explain in a small way how the FSS unit I used to rely on closed it's doors.

All the best,
TPC (also a dissatisfied NavCanada user)

[co-joe]

There has to be a way to open the air services monopoly to other entities? Navcan as a company is a bloated pig with no competition to make them more efficient. Even Navcan would benefit from the invisible hand in the long run.

Go ahead yeg66 flame away...

[robshelle]

Another reason why paying overtime is cheaper for Navcanada.

If a unit is at staff, then unless there are people away on holidays, or off sick, then there will be more controllers working then needed. If you need 3 for a day shift, then navcanada only wants 3 controllers working. If we end up with 4, it is wasted money. At CYEG a few years back, there were many days when we had 5 controllers on a shift, when only 3 were needed, lots of wasted money in managements eyes.

Robshelle

[ahramin]

Braun I can't dispute that chronic understaffing with overtime is cheaper than proper staffing levels with far less overtime. That model only works when you don't care about your product though. Scheduling is a complicated but very well understood problem. It is not impossible to predict how many controllers are going to be needed on a certain day. For smeg's sake WalMart uses a weather prediction company to figure out if they need more pool toys at a certain store next weekend. Does NavCanada check the weather for a coming long weekend to determine staffing needs? Last time I called the acc shift manager about a class C restriction he complained that there were "about 100 aircraft flying from Lethbridge to Nanaimo today". That event had been published months in advance.

As for the cost of training a new controller, I hear they aren't paid anymore until they get their licence now. Even with the specialty training post licence, I can't imagine the costs amount to much over a 30 to 40 year career you should get from controllers if you treat them as valuable employees and don't burn them out with ot. That's of course assuming sane scheduling levels that don't require paying the trainer ot .

[sstaurus]

As long as they continue with the "class C is restricted" horseshit, I'll continue with the not paying the invoices.

+1

This happens nearly all summer long in YWG.

[timel]

Ever check the weather, file a flight plan, need to relay a message to somewhere else that will save you time and money?

Yes! I mean costs are going up everywhere, that is just the way it is going globally, better get used to it.
If you can pay for a Cessna 180 I'm sure you can hand a 400$ fee.


The only time it got awkward, few years ago with with Nav can was when I asked to fill up a vfr flight plan airborne cause I couldn't reach them on the ground (no phone and mobile reception). The guy got upset at me so I told him : "you know what never mind the flight plan" ... Than he got nicer and made it work out.

Flying nearby NCA and lower regularly I could not imagine it without nav canada services that we use 4-5 times a day at minumum and I thank them for their work cause it is really appreciated.

[Pop n Fresh]

If you can pay for a Cessna 180 I'm sure you can handle a 400$ fee.

This might be fair enough but it is a poor excuse for taking yet more money so there is often a surplus to go toward something like health care which is failing us and I believe mismanaged.

No commas because I would have ran myself out of breath to say it.

[timel]

Well send some emails to managers at nav canada and tell them how to manage better their money. I am sure they will listen. From what I know nav canada is a private non lucrative company. It has nothing to do with government.

[Cat Driver]

From what I know nav canada is a private non lucrative company. It has nothing to do with government.

Really?????

When I started flying my taxes paid for " A L L " aviation services including writing exams and all aviation check rides and new license rides.

So why do I have to pay user fees for everything now?

The most blatant extortion of my money is the T C medical fee I have to pay after I have paid for my medical.

[timel]

Baby boomers pensions ever heard of that?

We the sooo called sunshine generation are stuck with crappy wages and we have to pay for the old folks pensions.

Still we don't complain and accept it.

[Cat Driver]

Baby boomers pensions ever heard of that?

Yes, the baby boomers came after my generation.

We the sooo called sunshine generation are stuck with crappy wages and we have to pay for the old folks pensions.

True you are getting far less for your taxes than we did, and just wait until you reach retirement age and see what you get.

Canada is over governed and the bureaucracy is so big now it has to implode.....I hope it does not implode while I collect the pittance the government pays me for all the taxes I paid during my life time.

Still we don't complain and accept it.

Exactly...that is why you are getting screwed by your government.

Therefore you will get what you are content to accept.

We the sooo called sunshine generation are stuck with crappy wages

No one is forcing you to work for crappy wages, thankfully I realized the only way to make good money was to work outside of Canada and I have retired in relative comfort.

[jpilot77]

timel said

Still we don't complain and accept it.

Speak for yourself!